Seth Williams – Land Flipping | 440

Seth Williams – Land Flipping | 440

land flipping

Matt Theriault is joined by Seth Williams on today’s episode of Thought Leader Thursday! Seth is an accomplished land investor with a detailed blog and brand new podcast. Learn the two main reasons Seth became involved in land flipping, how he avoided getting burned at the beginning of his real estate investing journey (including purchasing a deal for only $331?!), the direct mail tactics he uses to stand out in mailboxes, and much, much more!

land flipping

What You Will Learn About Seth Williams – Land Flipping:

  • How the book Rich Dad Poor Dad changed Seth Williams’ life forever
  • How Seth overcame never being able to find cash flowing deals
  • Why the 2008 recession was a lightbulb moment for Seth
  • The two main reasons Seth chose to invest in land
  • Where Seth made his first land purchase (for only $331!)
  • What Seth’s business looks like today
  • How to avoid getting burned at the beginning of your investing career
  • What convinced Seth to take on bigger deals
  • The direct mail tactics Seth uses to stand out in mailboxes
  • How Seth closes 6-12 deals per year and keeps his investing hours part-time
  • Why Seth decided to start a blog
  • The two biggest pieces of false advice Seth hears everywhere

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Speaker 1: This is Theriault Media.

Matt Theriault: I think the downside with land that I’ve experienced, it may be a lot easier to find deals. Like that’s almost never been a challenge for me. But getting them sold is where most people kind of hit a bottleneck.

Hello, I’m Matt Theriault of Epic Real Estate Investing and this is Thought Leader Thursday. Today I’m joined by a real estate investing entrepreneur who I’ve followed from a distance for quite a while. And from what I’ve noticed, based on the detail that he’s put into his website, the whole detail that he puts into his work, I can tell that he really loves and cares about his real estate investing and his business pursuits and that he just seems like one of the good guys. So I invited him on the show today so that I could get to know him better and so you could too. So please help me welcome to the show, Mr. Seth William. Seth, welcome to Epic Real Estate Investing.

Seth Williams: Hey, Matt. Thanks a lot for having me, Matt. I appreciate it. I’ve been a long-term fan and it’s an honor to talk to you.

Matt: Yeah, it looks like I’m becoming a fan of yours so we’re exchanging this mutual respect. And it’s a pleasure to meet you finally. Before we get into what you’re up to today in your real estate investing, what were you doing just prior to getting involved in real estate?

Seth: Yeah, well I … From what I’ve heard of your story, mine is kinda similar. When I was in college, I read the book Rich Dad Poor Dad as a lot of real estate investors did. And it just kinda got me interested in the whole real estate thing. But it doesn’t get too specific about what to do exactly. So I just sort of was aimlessly looking around for a long time trying to find real estate deals. And I was having a really hard time. I could never find anything that cash flowed. All the while, I was working a day job. I worked in the commercial banking industry. I was basically like a glorified credit analyst. I looked at deals and I got to crunch the numbers. So I was able to get familiar with how to analyze cash flow and how to look at what makes a good deal and a bad deal. But yeah. It was really just several years of working that job and a few years of struggling to find deals before I kind of figured out what niche to go after.

Matt: So what was it that had you even looking at real estate in the first place?

Seth: It was really the idea of generating multiple streams of passive income. That whole concept. And I’ve heard you talk about … Heard a lot of people talk about that as kind of like a Rich Dad Poor Dad philosophy in a way. Just diverse income that came in whether or not I was working. And I knew that real estate could be a huge part of that for me. For me, it was just the struggle of how do you find those opportunities. Because I knew people were doing it and they were succeeding at it, but I was just hitting wall after wall when I was trying to figure that out.

Matt: Got it. So, yeah. Like so many of us, we all started with that same book and it somewhat rendered us certifiably unemployable. But you’re right. It left a lot to be desired with regards to the details and the steps of what do you do next. Like this is a great concept, I’m all in, but now how? So where did that actual breakthrough come for you and were you like, “Okay, boom. I got it figured out. I can do this.”

Seth: Yeah. Absolutely. Well for me, the big lightbulb moment was around the 2008 timeframe when I … After trying to look at house flipping and rental properties, and taking out huge loans, and going into debt, and a lot of things that just the numbers never worked for me, I discovered the idea of land investing. And I learned about it from a home study course at the time. And it was an amazing opportunity. It just … I think the key … The reason why it worked better than anything I’d ever tried before, it’s kind of two-fold. The first part, just being land. It was a very simple type of property. There wasn’t a lot that could go wrong with it. For a lot of reasons, I was able to get comfortable. Not having to deal with tenants and things like that.

But I think for me, the more important part was my ability to find and get deals for cheap. Like very, very, very cheap. Like a few hundred dollars cheap. Like so cheap that loans were not part of the picture. I could use what little money I had in my bank account and buy and own something free and clear. And that was a game changer for me. Knowing exactly where and how to find really an unlimited number of those kinds of deals.

Matt: What is a few hundred dollar deal look like?

Seth: Yeah. Well, those were the kind of deals that I started off with in the beginning. Mainly because I didn’t have a lot of money and I was kinda scared. I didn’t know what I was doing exactly. I was still learning the ropes. But yeah, my first deal that I ever bought was a half-acre property. And I paid $331 for it.

Matt: Holy smokes.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: Where was that? Timbuktu?

Seth: I guess it depends on how you define Timbuktu. But it was definitely rural but it was about an hour away from the city where I lived in Grand Rapids. So it wasn’t terribly far away, but definitely not anywhere near a big city. But yeah, it was essentially just a half acre residential, buildable lot. And the person that sold it to me, they had bought it like 20 years earlier. And they lived in Long Beach, California I remember. And it’s the kind of thing where they just hadn’t seen it in forever. And all they knew is that they were paying this tax bill every year. And it was getting really annoying. And they wanted to be done with it.

And at the time, they had had delinquent taxes. And their option was they could just ignore the problem and lose the property and lose everything. Or they could try to sell it … Which is for the average person who’s not in the land business, it can be kinda hard to know where and how to sell land. It’s just kind of a [inaudible 00:06:08] thing. But when you’re in the business like I was, I sort of was geared up with information I needed and I knew what to do. And I was giving them the big end. Here you go. I’ll give you cash if you give me the deed to your property and you can be done with it.

And I don’t wanna make you feel that everybody’s gonna say yes to this kind of offer because many, many people will not. But it’s all about finding that small segment of society where the people have the property and they just don’t care about it. Their plans change. Maybe they inherited the property. There’s always these people out there and they’re never gonna put a for sale sign in the yard. And they’re never gonna hire a realtor to work for them. If you don’t go out and find them, it will never be found. And I hadn’t learned how to do that and it worked really really well. So yeah.

Matt: So that was the first deal. That was back 2008, 2009 is what you’re saying?

Seth: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Matt: Okay. So fast forward here a decade, what does your business look like today?

Seth: Yeah, well, those first few years, I worked pretty much exclusively in my home state because I thought I had to. And there are some benefits to doing that, but it’s totally not a requirement in the land business. It’s a pretty simple type of property and you can usually get the information you need without being on site to look at it. And most of the deals that I was doing back then were the kinds that you bought for a few hundred dollars and then sold for a few thousand dollars. And those can totally work, and I think when you’re getting started, those are great ones to work on. Because any mistakes you made, they end up being very, very small mistakes and they don’t really burn.

But after doing … At the time I think it was 2011, I did do a deal that made me about $44,000 and in the whole process, it took me five months to find a deal, to sell the deal. And to this day, I’ve never seen the property. So I never went. It was about four hours away. It was just too far. I didn’t want to go and visit it or anything. And after I made that kind of money from a deal without ever seeing it, I realized a couple of things. First of all, this big deal took about the same amount of work as a small deal did. So maybe I should start focusing on the bigger deals. And also, I didn’t really need to be there on site. Which means if I don’t need to be there, why don’t I just do this on the other side of the country? Pick the best state and start working there?

So that’s kind of the way that I’ve morphed things. I’ve also changed up my direct mail approach quite a bit. But yeah, essentially now, my goal is to do anywhere from six to 12 deals per year. But having them all be much larger deals. I’d say the bread and butter type of deal that I do makes about 20 to $30,000. Sometimes it’s a little bit less. Sometimes it’s more. But that’s kind of like what I’m shooting for. So those are … Based on the size range and the values and the markets that I’m choosing, those are the kinds of properties that I’m specifically targeting when I try to find motivated sellers. And yeah, it’s the kind of thing where you have to do a lot of cherry picking.

And I think with bigger properties like that, you have to search a little harder. Like you hear a lot more no’s from people. Because most people … When you look at all motivated land sellers, people who own a property that’s a quarter of an acre and it’s worth a few thousand bucks, that’s pretty easy to walk away from. But if you’ve got a property that’s worth $50,000, most people are gonna want a little bit more before they just let that kind of thing go. So there definitely is some challenge with going that approach. But ultimately, especially with just time constraints and different things I’ve got going on, that seems to be a pretty good strategy for the time being.

Matt: Right? Sounds like it. A lot of similarities between land and houses it sounds like. You’re still looking for people with problems, you’re looking for a small sector of the society. How you said the houses that you buy, they don’t have signs in front of the yards so you have to go find them. Direct mail is how you’re finding them, right?

Seth: Yup.

Matt: Okay. There’s a lot of conversation right now about direct mail. And I don’t know exactly when this episode is going to air, but I don’t imagine that it’s gonna change too soon what people are talking about direct mail, what people are really kind of complaining about their responses and what it used to be, and then going broke on their marketing campaigns and stuff like that. So you said you made some changes to your direct mail and how you approach it. Significantly what are you doing to stand out in people’s mailboxes?

Seth: Yeah. One thing that … And again, I’ve done direct mail campaigns for houses before. But it’s been few and far between. That’s not where most of my experiences … And I’m familiar with getting deals on houses for $500. That can totally happen. And I’ve experienced that. In my experience with other … And my conversations with other household sellers in different markets around the country they’ll … It seems that direct mail for houses, it takes a lot more mail to get the same number of accepted deals when you’re comparing that with the land.

I think it’s because … My theories are that with houses, there’s a lot more competition. Most people are thinking along those lines. When you think of investing in real estate, most people think of a house or a multifamily property. They’re not thinking about vacant land and dirt. And vacant land has always been … I used to say zero competition, but now I’d say low competition. I think there have been a couple of occasions. I’ve run into other competitors out there. And it hasn’t hurt me, but there are other people out there. More people doing it these days. But even then, it’s like … Man, I want to say like 5% the amount of competition that I think there is in houses.

So it doesn’t take … Like I’ve heard some of the numbers run by other people in the land business. And it’s kinda like if it takes … I don’t know 250 mailers to get one acceptance in a land, it’s like five times that amount for houses. Maybe even more. At least, that was what they experienced with their different split testing. So it kind of gives you an idea of the difference in competition. And I think the downside with land that I’ve experienced, it may be a lot easier to find deals. That’s almost never been a challenge for me. But getting them sold is where most people kind of hit a bottleneck. Sometimes properties sell like that. Other times it can take you three, or six, or nine, or 12 months. And that can be very frustrating especially when you see the demand for houses that can sell much, much faster and you can build a buyers list. And there’s just tons of people on the list right away. And they’re all interested and active.

And the land is just a different animal. It doesn’t quite work that way. And there’s usually more control than you think you have. Like if you’re willing to pick up the phone, call builders, call different people in the area, try to figure out where the buyers are, you can usually do a lot to move a property faster. But most people don’t think about that. They feel like they’re stuck with Craigslist and Zillow and that’s all the control they have.

Matt: Got it. Yeah, there’s pros and cons to every investment strategy. We have a mutual friend that was really trying to convince me that the land thing is the perfect strategy. But there’s cons to it too. So you’re saying it’s not as liquid as houses and even houses aren’t that liquid. It depends on the market and the market conditions, I guess. But it’s less liquid than houses. You lose out on the tax benefits. You can’t depreciate the land.

Seth: Absolutely.

Matt: Difficult to capitalize on any sort of leverage that you get with houses. But then again, it has its pros and you don’t have any tenants. You don’t have the termites calling you. It’s been a long time since I had a termite phone call. You don’t have that. And the deals, you can find them a little bit easier. They’re a less marketing expense. It’s a little lower barrier to entry. So yeah. I think there’s room for everything inside of a diversified portfolio.

You’re doing six to 12 a year. What does that look like time wise for you?

Seth: Like how much time per weekend spending on that?

Matt: Yeah, like how much … Is this a full-time business for you to do six to 12 deals or is this something just on the side.

Seth: No, I mean, honestly, it’s pretty much always been a part-time thing for me. And that was part of why I started the blog back in the day was that I didn’t have 40 hours a week to dedicate to this. I was working a job. When I was getting started, it was not easy. I was torn between a lot of different things. And that was one of the reasons the blog … Or I’m sorry. The land business worked so well for me is because I think in the beginning, I was probably spending upwards of like 20 hours a week doing this on nights and weekends. And there was a lot of inefficiencies and things I was doing that was just consuming a lot more time than it needed to. These days I would say, on a typical week I’m spending maybe five hours a week on it. If it’s really, really busy, maybe 10 hours. Like if there’s tons of deals coming in, a transaction’s happening. But that’s about the extent of it.

Honestly, even that, I’ve always sort of struggled to find the best CRM system that will really streamline things and automate the heck out of things. Like I definitely … For example, when I’m doing a direct mail campaign, I’m never licking stamps and doing all that stuff myself. There’s just certain things you just sort of have to do efficiently. So I’m definitely doing that, but I think it’s totally feasible to spend even less time per week if I was being smarter about how to spend my time. So yeah.

Matt: Got it. Alright, so it’s a part-time land business. You’ve got probably I think the nicest real estate investing blog that I’ve ever seen. I mean, I think it’s the nicest one out there. It’s just amazing how much detail you’ve put into it. What a resource it is.

Seth: Yeah., you got it.

Matt: I always type in REI Tipster in my thing when I’m looking for you.

Seth: I actually bought that domain and had it redirected to mine. Because you’re not the only [crosstalk 00:16:39]

Matt: Oh did you?

Seth: There’s a lot of people who do that.

Matt: Got it. Okay good. So A fantastic resource. And you’ve got a new podcast as well, right?

Seth: Yeah, yeah. It’s … I’m pretty new to the game. I don’t have nearly any experience at this that you have. But yeah, I just started a few months ago. And it’s been going good so far. It’s been kind of a new thing that I have to learn to hone and do better at. But yeah, it’s been a lot of fun. I gotta have you on the show sometime. That’d be really cool.

Matt: Yeah, I’d love to. I’m curious. Because I teach … As far as a part of lead generation, there’s so many different ways you can generate leads. And once you’ve kind of got the foundation and the basics that are gonna bring in an abundance of leads and bring those inconsistently, I start recommending things like a YouTube channel or things like a blog. And even things like a podcast. You don’t have to be a podcast celebrity for a podcast to work wonders for you. I’m just curious, what has your blog and now your podcast … What are you getting from that? Is it just personal enjoyment? Personal fulfillment? Or is it generating any business for you?

Seth: Yeah, it’s … Good question. I’m trying to think of … I mean, for sure, a huge part of it is enjoyment. If I didn’t really, really love doing it, there’s no way I would have survived this long. I don’t know what your experience was like when you started getting into the education space, but for me, it was probably at least 18 months of just nobody caring about anything I was saying. It was like I was just hitting publish and nobody was reading it. That’s a hard thing to do month after month after month. But because I really, really liked it and I really enjoyed the few comments I was getting, it was a lot of fun for me. I kept doing it. And part of it was also … There were a lot of unanswered questions that I had when I was starting in the business and things that just nobody was going to hold my hand or teach me how to do it. I just had to struggle through it and figure it out and bump into walls along the way. I knew how hard that was for me and I wanted to connect dots for other people. So that was really part of the idea behind that. I was just making it as easy as I could for other people who were in my situation.

Yeah, but there are definitely ways that I monetize the site. I run ads on it. I’ve got a YouTube channel that … For the most part, I use it because videos are a really good way to show people how to do things and explain things to them. I prefer to watch videos over reading blog posts. So for the people like me out there, I want to serve them too. Occasionally I’ll promote other things that I’ve tried out like services that I think are helpful. So I do that kind of thing. In terms of using it specifically for the land business, a lot of the people that reach out to me because of that want my help. They want me to hold their hand and show them how to do … I did a lot of that for a while and I still do occasionally. But honestly, I just don’t have a ton of time for it anymore. And I … The one on one coaching, I’ve enjoyed my time doing it, but I don’t think it’s where my time is best spent, honestly. And so I haven’t really thrown myself into that a lot. But I thought about doing some group coaching calls or something like that, but I haven’t got into that yet. So does that answer your question?

Matt: Yeah, definitely. The now … Now you just changed my question. I was gonna ask you, now that you have the blog, you have the podcast, what that tends to do is when you start getting into an educational space or any new space or niche, it fires off your reticular activator and you start noticing everybody else that’s like you, or similar to you, or is doing the same thing, trying to do the same thing. You go and you buy a new car that you thought you were the first one on the block to get and then you get at home and you notice three more on the driveways on the way home. That’s what I’m talking about. So is there one piece … Now that you’re kind of in that space, is there one piece of bad advice you hear from educators that just really kinda gets under your skin?

Seth: Yeah, man. There’s a lot.

Matt: You don’t have to name any names. Just what’s the bad advice. I think there’s a lot of bad advice out there. And there’s bad advice doled out by people with pretty large platforms. And I don’t know. It irks me. It’s a little pet peeve of mine.

Seth: Yeah, I totally get that. It’s … I think there’s kinda like two different types of … At least two different types. Maybe there’s more. But just off the top of my head. One is specifically as it relates to land investing. A lot of times I’ll hear this in forums where somebody will say, “Hey, guys. I want to get into land investing. What suggestions do you have?” And the people that respond are like land investing is stupid. It doesn’t make sense because of this and because of that. And what’s going on there is the people who are giving that kind of negative feedback, they have no idea what business model we’re even talking about. The land is stupid if you’re gonna pay full price for it and lose money on it. Yeah. But if you know how to find good deals and do direct mail, it’s actually pretty brilliant. And so just giving this half-baked advice from people who don’t really even understand what they’re addressing is really, really frustrating.

The other part is there’s other people who do direct mail. Other people in my space that they have alternative ways of doing things. And I totally respect that. I think that’s cool. I think it can work for them. But they kind of present it in such a way that’s like this is the only way. You are stupid if you do anything other than what I’m saying. For lack of better words, that’s basically what they’re saying. And I’ve always been … I don’t know. I try to be … To the extent that I can, I try to be humble with what I say in terms of this is what I have done and this is what has worked for me. And this is why I think it’s worked. But there are other ways to do this too and that’s okay. But this is the way that I do it.

So I’m not the kind of guy that’s gonna get in your face and tell you, you’re a moron if you don’t believe everything that I do. I’m basically … I try to be like a giant case study. Just being as transparent as I can about what has worked and what has failed. And when I do fail, I don’t wanna hide that. I don’t want to just say that I have all the answers and I am the ultimate authority on everything. I’m totally human, I make mistakes, I continue to make them today and here’s what they are. That kind of thing.

Matt: Yeah, it’s funny how you just answered both of those questions. This is why I indirectly and virtually have connected with you because I come from very much the same school. It’s really amazing how convicted people can be or how strong with their opinions they can be with something they know so little about.

Seth: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I know.

Matt: I’ve got this … I’ve got a couple of videos on my YouTube channel that just … It brings out just the worst of the worst from the YouTubers. And it’s all about the 401k and how … It’s just funny. I can tell by the way that they … First two things I can tell is the way that they respond is … First thing is that they didn’t even watch the whole video. Because what they’re saying, what they’re commenting on, I didn’t even say that in that video. And the second thing is it’s the only way and they’re so closed off to any sort of alternative because they’re so emotional about it. And yeah, very much I’ve talked about a lot of my failures on my show. And I think there’s a learning experience. It’s an opportunity to really share with people. This is what you watch out for and don’t make this mistake because I already made it for you. It was very expensive and you probably don’t want to pay that ticket. So yeah, definitely. I think that’s why I’m just one of the good guys. Our first time meeting I was like, “I like this guy.”

Seth: Yeah.

Matt: So let’s finish on an up note now.

Seth: Sure.

Matt: Let’s not talk about pet peeves and negativity. What’s the best book you read in the last 12 months and how did it impact you?

Seth: Oh, man. That’s a great question. I wasn’t prepared for that. I have … I’m gonna open my Audible app here. I got a bunch of books that I’ve been reading. One that I really enjoyed … This might have been a little over a year ago, but it was called Pitch Anything. Have you heard of that book?

Matt: Yeah, definitely. That guy’s name is Seth, I think. Right? The author?

Seth: I don’t know. I feel like I would remember that if it was for some reason. Oren Klaff.

Matt: Oren.

Seth: Yeah.

Matt: Oren, Seth. Pretty close.

Seth: [inaudible 00:25:41] But yeah, I really enjoyed that one. I thought it … Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever been a master at sales. Like to this day, I don’t think I really am. There’s a lot of … I don’t know. If I’m supposed to sell somebody on something, I do horrible at it. I just don’t know what I’m doing. And that’s part of why like in my blog, I generally don’t … I’m never telling you to buy something. The way that I approach it is this is what I use, this is how it works, this is good and bad of it, there you go. If that sounds interesting to you, there it is. So I just don’t … I’m not good at that. But I felt that book did a really, really good job of helping me sort of understand how to frame things and psychologically what’s going on in a person’s mind when they object and how to get past that. It’s pretty brilliant advice in that book.

Matt: It’s a great book. Good one. It’s one of my favorites. I’ve never had that answer, though. I mean no one has ever … I haven’t … See, there again, kindred spirits. So what’s in the future right now for you, Seth, that’s got you really excited?

Seth: Yeah, man. A lot of stuff I guess. Excited to see where the podcast is gonna go. Again, that’s a pretty new thing. Still kinda getting my bearings and figuring out how to do it well.

Matt: What’s the name of the podcast?

Seth: It’s a pretty original name. It’s the RE Tipster Podcast.

Matt: Fantastic. [crosstalk 00:27:07] hours thinking about that one.

Seth: I actually … I don’t know that that’s the best name because most people are gonna be searching for real estate investing and that’s why they find your show because it’s awesome and it’s been around for a long time. But they’re probably not gonna find that when they search for RE Tipster.

Matt: Yeah, you have to think about the keywords on iTunes.

Seth: The blog, also, I’ve actually got a team right now working on kinda redesigning it and trying to make it look better. So that’s a lot of fun. The land business, it’s actually been a long time since I’ve worked in my home state. It’s been several years. But I’m diving back into that pretty close to where I live. And so I’m actually really really interested to see how this goes and … Because last time I was working at my home state it was 2011, 2012. Real estate market was completely different than what it is now. And I’m just interested to see what the difference of values and the difference in motivation and demand for real estate. How that’s gonna change things up where I’m from. But yeah, those are some of the things I got going on.

Matt: Perfect. I just know how humans are wired. And anyone that is a fan of my show I think will become a fan of you as well. If they wanted to reach out to you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Seth: Yeah, sure. Well, I’ve got a contact page on the blog at I think it’s currently on the top navigation bar. When I redesign the site it’ll be at the bottom so you might have to look around for it. But yeah, I’m also on Facebook, and Twitter, and Linkedin, and all that. People can feel free to reach out and I rarely say no when people send me friend requests.

Matt: Alright. Sweet. Well, it’s been a pleasure, Seth. Let’s do this again.

Seth: Yeah, absolutely.

Matt: The best of luck to you. It was a pleasure meeting you.

Seth: Absolutely. Thanks a lot, man. Appreciate it.

Matt: You bet. You bet. Alrighty. So thanks for tuning in to Epic Real Estate Investing today. God bless to your success. I’m Matt Theriault and I’ll see you next week on another episode of Thought Leader Thursday. Take care.

Matt Theriault

Real estate investor and educator.