Sean Terry, The Clever Investor Cody Sperber, Joe McCall – Mastermind Monday | 496


Sean Terry

Meet Sean Terry, The Clever Investor Cody Sperber, and Joe McCall, the veterans of real estate investing that share timeless pearls of wisdom in today’s show! Find out their best sources of off-market deals, their cold calling approaches, and why the number of offers that you make per week is all that matters.

Sean Terry

What You Will Learn About Sean Terry, The Clever Investor Cody Sperber, Joe McCall – Mastermind Monday 

  • Why all REI knowledge is rather timeless
  • In what markets Sean, Cody and Joe are in and how their business looks today
  • Cody’s best source for finding off-market deals
  • How Cody’s multi-level marketing machine is related to his REI
  • Sean’s and Joe’s best sources of off-market deals
  • Joe’s best approach when cold calling
  • How much his training goes into his 5 VAs and,
  • How important their effectiveness is
  • Sean’s and Cody’s approach when picking up a phone
  • Sean Terry’s opinion on voice mail
  • Why the number of offers that you made per week is all that matters
  • The difference between trying to flip a house and owning an active RE business
  • What trends they see in their markets and how that concerns them or changes the way they operate
  • The one thing Cody would go back and do differently
  • Why you should go deep before you go wide
  • The best books they have read in the last 12 months
  • The best way to contact them

Watch the full interview on YouTube, click here!

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Speaker 1: This is The Epic Field Report.

Matt Theriault: Hey Roberto, how goes it?

Roberto Mason: It’s going. How you doing?

Matt: Good, good. Where are you calling from?

Roberto: Goldsboro, North Carolina, about an hour outside of Raleigh.

Matt: Got it. Is that where you’re doing your real estate as well?

Roberto: Yes, Eastern North Carolina at the moment.

Matt: Okay perfect. So I noticed in the Flight Club, the private Facebook group, I think it was last Friday, or maybe the Friday before, you posted a deal here, you’re part of our pilot program, and I wanted to just bring you on and talk to you about it really quickly, and you kind of have all the stats right here, but I’ll just let you share it in your words. How did you find this deal?

Roberto: The deal came through bandit signs, so from there the seller drove from downtown LA all the way to Goldsboro, North Carolina to sell pretty much their last rental property and from there, they called my bandit sign, I showed up to the property and after some negotiation, I was the best option for them at the time.

Matt: Okay. Wow. So this is the last bandit sign that the city did not take down. So this is your last sign standing-

Roberto:  Pretty much.

Matt: and this seller drove all the way from California-

Roberto:  Downtown LA, yes.

Matt: That’s what you call a motivated seller.

Roberto: Yes. At least a 9.5/10 in terms of motivation.

Matt: Pretty much. So your exit strategy, did you flip this? Did you wholesale it?

Roberto: No, I decided to hold onto the property and reason being, I contacted my property manager who actually manages another property we have about a quarter of a mile away and there’s a waiting list for two bedrooms, one bath under $1000. So it worked out like a charm. Wholesaling really didn’t make a whole lot of sense when I calculated cash on cash return.

Matt:  Got it. Okay. Yeah. Holding is always better. So how did you acquire it? Did you have the cash? Did you get a loan? Did the seller carry back?

Roberto:  I did not. So through a relationship, I was able to get private financing.

Matt:  Private financing.

Roberto:  Had really good terms, yes. And they were able to front the acquisition costs and we’re going to pay for the rehab out of pocket.

Matt:  Wow, perfect. So was that too much of a struggle, arranging those funds?

Roberto:  It was not. I’m starting to develop somewhat of a track record in the area and again, we’ve done business with this particular private lender in the past, so it worked out for them. They were able to get the terms and return I should say that they wanted on their money and they were able to come through and provide funding for this deal in about two or three days after they took a look at what we had on paper.

Matt: That’s awesome. So after they looked at what you had on paper, so because you had the deal, made the money a little easier to find?

Roberto: That’s correct. I had the deal so the money pretty much followed [crosstalk 00:02:53] purchase price because we know what the comps were [crosstalk 00:02:56] house right next door so and then we did a couple comparisons on three other properties who had comparables, so it was a no-brainer for the lender.

Matt: Right? For sure. So I’m kind of steering you that way on purpose, kind of a self-serving question because you find the deal first, the money finds you essentially. It’s much easier to find, right?

Roberto: That was my experience.

Matt: Perfect. Okay. Cool. So the lender got the ROI that they wanted. What is the ROI that you got?

Roberto: The ROI that we received, right now, is looking at about 36% is going to be our cash on cash return because we have next to no money in the deal outside of the rehab costs, and it should bring in about a 36% cash on cash return. That’s the first year. We’re sitting at over 20 in equity.

Matt: You can build your wealth pretty darn quickly and escape the rat race pretty darn quickly with returns like that.

Roberto: I hope so.

Matt:  All right. Good. So in this transaction, Roberto, what was the biggest lesson that you learned?

Roberto:  The biggest lesson learned would probably be to continue to be consistent ’cause we were trying other marketing strategies and for this particular market with the age of the typical homeowners, sellers in this market, bandit signs actually worked and I have a lack of knowledge when it comes to property inspection, so I’ve taken the time to learn more about the HVAC systems, when roofs should be replaced and that way I can better estimate repair costs moving forward.

Matt: Fantastic, fantastic. Yeah, Bandit signs, they come and go because it’s been a common deal source for a lot of people lately, so glad it’s working for you. How are you gonna celebrate?

Roberto: That’s a great question. I haven’t slowed down. Ever since we went to closing, I’m at the property in the morning and then I have my night gig where I’m working all night on the flight line, so I haven’t had an opportunity to celebrate just yet, but we will pretty soon.

Matt: All right. What branch are you in?

Roberto: United States Air Force.

Matt: United States Air Force. Thank you, Roberto, for your service on behalf of everyone here at Epic and the whole audience.

Roberto: Thank you for your support. I do appreciate it.

Matt: You bet. So keep doing what you’re doing. Let us know how we can help, and we’ll do this again soon.

Roberto: Got it, sounds like a plan.

Matt: All right. Take care.

Roberto: Thank you.

Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bye-bye.

Speaker 1: This is Theriault Media.

Matt: Yeah. What’s up? Hello and welcome to The Epic Real Estate Investing show. Got a little carried away there. Sorry. I’m super excited about this show today. It’s going to be a big one. But welcome to the show where we meet here each and every week to help everyday people escape the rat race using real estate, and I just want to thank you. Thank you for listening to the show. We wouldn’t be here unless it was for you and you sharing this with your friends and your family and your associates and all the referrals. It’s just been fantastic. I’m very, very grateful for that.

You can stay connected with us here by hitting the subscribe button inside of iTunes. You can stay connected with us on Instagram at Epic Real Estate. In case you didn’t know, from time to time, it’s going to be obvious here on the podcast that there are visuals to see as I’m talking because sometimes we pull the audio away from some of our YouTube videos, and we’ll play that here as a podcast. When you hear something like that, head over to, and that’ll take you to the Epic YouTube channel where the video versions of the podcasts are uploaded there every single week. Alrighty? So yeah, super excited about today.

We led off the show in a really nice fashion. Big congratulations to Roberto [Mason 00:01:28], a member of the Flight Club, the new pilot program that helps you get your first or next deal done using little to no money. That’s our second field report that we’ve shared from the program, and I have many more lined up to share with you in future episodes. That pilot program, by the way, it’s still free prior to the official launch in spring of 2019. That’s why we’re calling it a pilot program. Just getting results and so I can share real stories from the program. So it’s still free.

In fact, it’s better than free. I mean, for now, meaning if you share your feedback and results with me while you’re in the program, I’ll pay you to follow through and complete the course. So if that sounds like something you might be interested in, go to Make your pledge there, and then you’ll have instant access to everything that you need to get your first or next deal done using little to no money. I mean everything. You’re going to have the plan. You’re going to have the resources. You’re going to have all the support you need. You’ll even have direct access to me, and all of that is available at Alrighty, let’s get that out of the way.

Let’s start the show. It’s a big one, right? If you’re listening right now, you might have been attracted here just by the title of the show. It’s something that I’ve been thinking about for a while. If you don’t know what it is already, once you do know what it is, you can only probably imagine how challenging this was to really pull together, to coordinate the schedules of my guests today, and I have to give all of the credit to my amazing assistant, Ash. She chased these dudes around relentlessly to get this coordinated. I don’t envy her at all what she had to do to make this happen. So I’m really grateful that she did though, as I have so much respect for these people because, as I was first looking to get into real estate investing, coming up on, wow, 15 years ago. I’ve been investing in real estate almost as long as I was in the music business, so that’s weird. Getting old. Time is flying.

But back then when I was looking to get started, it seemed that really every educator out there was on their last leg, meaning they were old. I couldn’t help but wonder how long it had been since they last bought a property. When was the last time they even put any of this stuff to work? Was what they were teaching even current? Would it work in today’s market? A lot of those infomercials were playing in the ’70s and the ’80s, and here I was in the year 2000 trying to figure this out. I was wondering, “Is it still going to work? Is this thing too good to be true? Blah, blah, blah.” All those things go through your head when you’re just starting out.

But since then, I’ve come to know most of what you need to know about investing in real estate. It’s rather timeless. Not a whole lot of things that change. But there are certainly nuances of the day that might give you an edge. The internet has certainly changed all kinds of stuff. It’s changed everything, and there may be some technology or systems or approaches that enable you to be more efficient. But these are all things that only active practitioners would know, current practitioners. That’s what attracts me to my guests today. Although they have each made huge names for themselves in showing other people how to invest, I mean, they’re so good at it, and they’re so effective in doing that because they’re all still in the trenches. They all, to this day, practice what they preach. They walk the talk, so let’s just get into it. Without further ado, let’s kick off today’s Mastermind Monday session with Mr. Joe McCall, Mr. Sean Terry, and Mr. Cody Sperber. Welcome to The Epic Real Estate Investing Show.

Cody Sperber: Hello.

Joe McCall: Hey Matt.

Sean Terry: What’s up!

Matt: There they are. Love it.

Joe: Hey Matt, who are you talking to, you’re looking the other way. Who are you talking-

Matt: Yeah. So we do this multipurpose thing of content. So we’ve got like four cameras going on right now. And then I got you guys online so we cut this up into a bunch of little pieces so everyone could get a taste of the goodness that we do here.

Joe: Boom.

Matt: Boom. All right. So let’s just kinda go around the table, introduce yourself, what market you’re in, and then a little bit about your current real estate investing business. Joe, why don’t you lead us off?

Joe: Well, Hey Matt. Right now we’re actually wholesaling a lot of deals in Birmingham, Alabama and Jackson, Mississippi. I live in St. Louis, Missouri. We’re starting to do a little, some lease options in San Diego as well, venturing into California because things are calming down a little bit, cooling down a little bit there. But I love virtual wholesaling and I’m doing this with one of our students and one of my coaching business partners. We’re doing 10 to 15 deals a month right now, and it’s going really, really well. Straight up, old-fashioned cold calling.

Matt: Nice. Nice. Yeah, a lot has changed since I talked to you last. So interesting. We’ll talk about it. Mr. Sean Terry.

Sean: What’s up, what’s up! Sean Terry, Phoenix, Arizona. I am a [inaudible 00:02:38] in the wholesaling business for about 15 years. Currently went from a one-man show to build with the team now. We’re doing about 150,000 a week in wholesale fees right now in Phoenix. So we’re crushing, market’s great. Started a podcast back in 2010. Have a ton of listeners. Started getting information space. So that’s a blast: Education, teaching people, helping people. Just closed on a 120 unit student housing project in Columbus, Georgia. First, we did a private placement, real estate’s indication. So it’s kind of all prospects real estate. Love it.

Matt: Awesome. Yeah. A lot has changed over there too. So congrats on your recent success.

Joe: Hey Matt. I gotta say-

Matt: Go ahead, Joe.

Joe: … first. You and I both have more higher ratings and reviews than Sean Terry does. For our podcasts.

Cody: This must be … It must be your beard and then he does one every, like he does a [inaudible 00:03:37] podcast a day. So, I mean, [inaudible 00:03:40].

Matt: What you lack in talent you gotta make up in volume, right.

Joe: I just wanted to let everybody know.

Matt: Thank you, Joe. I appreciate it.

Joe: Of course, yeah.

Matt: Mr. Sperber.

Cody: What’s going on guys? Hey Matt, first off, thanks for having me on, always loved watching your stuff, man. You are a freaking workhorse. You got-

Matt: Beast!

Cody: … tons of good stuff out there. I love the fact that you really focus on wealth creation, creating sustainable wealth through real estate. You know, us deal junkie guys, we’re all about flipping houses and we keep putting ourself out of a job because we’re always looking for the next deal fix. But I always really admired your hustle and everything you got going on. You got a great community. So-

Matt: Awesome, thanks, Cody.

Cody: And you must be doing something right because you lined up some beasts on this one.

Matt: Actually I did.

Cody: You know, [inaudible 00:04:31] looking guys, [inaudible 00:04:34]-

Matt: [inaudible 00:04:33] and a fantastic assistant to pull it off, so.

Cody: There you go. Anyways, my name is Cody Sperber. My wife started calling me The Clever Investor long before I was clever and, you know, the term sticked, is that how I say it? The coin, term … Anyway-

Matt: Stuck.

Cody:  You know, I’m actually in the Phoenix market as well. Me and Sean Terry have been going toe to toe for over a decade now. And, you know, having a lot of fun. I started off wholesaling because I didn’t have any money and I had to get creative and create the money. And then I got into, finally got the courage to do some rehabs, work my way up. I’ve done a little over a thousand deals, probably like 13, 1400 deals by now. I’ve kind of lost track. But in 2010, started Clever Investor, the education company. It was going to be a software company. I was using some pretty cool tools in my own personal business and, you know, people were asking me, can I get my hands on that software?

And then it took off and the education came right behind it, and we blew up the business. Got 77 amazing team members. We’re one of the larger education businesses in this space. And it’s been a wild ride. So much fun. And right now my real estate business, I actually just partnered with my two best friends. So this is going to be new and interesting for me. We’re all old. We’re all 40 plus at this point, and one guy owns a Buffalo Wild Wings. He’s never done a real estate deal in his life, but he watches a lot of HGTV. And my other buddy sold T-shirts for a living. So what could go wrong? We got the guru, the chicken wing guy, and the T-shirt guy, and we literally just started last week and every single day they come and sit down in front of me like, what do we do? We want to go out and get deals.

But you know, what works, works, you know. We already have four or five rehabs that we’re getting started and we’re buying from other wholesalers, but the business is gonna be a rehabbing business. We’re going to wholesale some, but it’s gonna be a rehabbing business. I want to, you know, just get those big fat paydays so I can then listen to your podcast, Matt, and figure out how to put the money to work. I can fire myself from this business-

Matt: Right.

Cody: … and do the fun stuff in life.

Matt: That’s good. So yeah, I haven’t talked to you guys in so long and everyone’s doing something a little different. Got some new nuances. So I’m interested to dive deep into all of that. The most common question here on the show is what’s your best source of off-market deals at the moment? Cody, do you want to take that one?

Cody: Yeah. And I’m sure they’re going to jump in on this, but there used to be riches in the niches, right? For a long time I was, you know, door knocking and when that stopped working, door knocking foreclosures. The market started melting down and then I was down at the foreclosure auction, and then the REOs happened, and the short sales happened, and there was all these niches. And lately, there hasn’t really been these ability to go really wide and aggressive like we could when there was all this distressed property coming through. So what’s working right now is just dialing for dollars, honestly. You’re probably gonna hear that from everybody, but direct mail was killing it for a while and still works. It’s a consistent man’s game. You got to really send a lot of mail pieces consistently to get that hockey stick kind of returns.

So what we’re focusing on right now is just, you know, being able to go after really good targeted type of lead. Maybe we were farming areas of high equity absentee owners or foreclosures or probates or whatever. But instead of sending a mail, we’re actually getting those lists, skip tracing them and putting on a headset, putting on a smile and just dialing for dollars. And that seemed to be pulling a good amount of deals. And the last thing I’ll say before I let it go is, I don’t, I honestly think of marketing as like a seven layer cake. You got to layer in a bunch of different layers. You can’t just be focused on just one strategy. I know that was the original question, what’s your best way?

But they all kind of play together in today’s world. It’s more about like omnipresent in the mind of your prospect. If they see you on social, they see you when they google, and they see you on paper [inaudible 00:09:04], and they see you on Facebook ads and may go you, you pixel them and you go over to YouTube and they see you on YouTube and you’re chasing them all over. And then they’re getting direct mail from you. All of a sudden they feel like you’re bigger than life. You’ve almost created an experience for them, and honestly, that’s how we’re able to get more deals is just because we’re everywhere. Once they get into our web, we’re doing multiple layers of marketing to them at the same time.

Matt: Question on that, Cody. You talk about this multilevel marketing machine that you’ve got built and I see it everywhere. You’ve got this monster training program and training course, and do you separate that from your real estate business as far as when you’re looking for the sellers and you do the same practices?

Cody: Yeah, it’s pretty much the same thing. It’s just, you know, my real estate business, the education side of things is it’s digital. We’re really digital marketers that sell real estate investing education, right. And so there’s certain things I’m going to do online, and with homeowners, it’s a little different. I’m still doing the Facebook ads. I’m still retargeting, I’m chasing around on YouTube and all that stuff, but I send a lot more direct mail in my real estate business to acquire deals. Like in my education business, I’m not putting out bandit signs, you know, that kind of thing. It’s really a relationship business on the real estate side. So I’m networking with lots of real estate agents, lots of wholesalers. Since I’m rehabbing, I’m kinda everybody’s best friend because I’m a cash buyer or rehabbing, I can go out there really easily and tell people, “Hey, we got cash, we want to buy the deals before they hit the market. The pocket listings, the pre-listings,” you know, if I’m talking to agents.

So there are some nuances and there’s some similarities. I’m still working on search engine optimization. I’m still consistently posting on social for real estate leads. So it’s close, not quite the same. I’m still building a funnel, right. You’ve got to think of this business and marketing. Everybody focuses on the front end of the funnel, which is lead generation. I could hand you 10,000 homeowners right now that own houses. Maybe they want to sell. Maybe they don’t. And I could drive them towards your website or I can, you know, get them to call you. But if you don’t have a conversion process to put them through, conversion is the actual key to this business. The lead gen, the front end of the funnel is not that difficult. It’s like a recipe, a formula. Sean Terry is one of the best lead gen guys out there, right. Joe McCall, he knows how to get VAs to do amazing things to generate all these leads.

But the reality is the conversion part is, in my opinion, way more important because nowadays people need experience. Everybody’s selling something. Everybody’s pitching something. There’s 50 million blinky lights on social media. People’s brains are geeking out. But if you can cut through that noise and create an experience for people, meet them where they are and understand how to talk to them on a deeper level. Almost like a doctor with a stethoscope, you got to listen to their soul a little bit more nowadays. And if you can cut through everything and get there, that’s when you have a higher chance of getting the deal. That art of building rapport, that art of influence is very important. So didn’t mean to go off tangent, but you know, our main strategy is dialing for dollars, but we are layering it in with everything else. That’s what makes it way more effective.

Matt: Got It. That was awesome. Sean, what can you add to that? What’s your best source of off-market deals at the moment?

Sean: Well, actually, Cody pretty much nailed it on the head when it came to layering. So what we’ll do is we’ll pull a huge property tax default list. We’ll take that list and then we’ll skip trace it with like an [IDI 00:13:00]. It will give us a ton of different numbers. Now we have that skip trace list, we’ll direct mail that list with like a street view postcard. Then we’ll take that list and then we’ll rip out all the cell phone numbers and then we’ll RBM them, ringless voicemail them. Then we take that list with all of the numbers that [inaudible 00:13:16] on there, and then we put them in a call tools, which is our dialer, and I have basically five cold callers. They’re cold calling about a thousand dials today on those, and then after cold calling, we’ll take that entire list, upload it to Facebook with the email addresses, their phone numbers, and everything. And then we’re going to retarget them with Facebook ads.

So that’s basically the combination of, you know, just like you’re repurposing content, we’ll basically repurpose that list, and we’re going to hit them from every angle. So what we’re finding is the results are we’re about $43 cost per lead when it comes to RBM ringless voicemail. That’s the cheapest, fastest, easiest way to get in front of someone very quickly, to get leads coming in almost instantly. Cold calling, we’re seeing about $110 cost per lead. Direct mail we’re seeing 341 cost per lead. So when you combine all those on a blended cost per lead, you know, we’re driving our cost per lead down significantly lower.

So once those leads come in, we have basically had three lead managers, they’re booking all the calls. We have three sales guys going out there and going on appointments, 20 appointments a week. And it is that process of creating that experience, and the conversion’s incredibly important. We have iPad presentations, we have [inaudible 00:14:29] on iPads. We DocuSign everything with sellers. So they’re bringing in anywhere from three to five contracts a week, each individual sales guy. And then from there, you know, we’re just pumping them out and selling them quick.

Matt: Awesome. Mr. McCall, your best source of off-market deals at the moment?

Joe: We are pulling lists of absentee owners with high equity. We’re targeting high cash flow markets. Like I’m finding the easiest deals to wholesale are the ones that there’s a lot of out of state investors that are coming in and buying up these properties for cash flow. So Birmingham, Alabama is really good. Jackson, Mississippi is really good. And we’re targeting these homeowners. We’re targeting absentee landlords. So we’re getting addresses, we’re skip tracing them, we’re doing ringless voicemail. And then we are cold calling with Mojo. We’re using Mojo Sells. I want to start using call tools. I’ve heard a lot of good things about it, but-

Matt: Precious.

Joe: We have $5 an hour VAs in the Philippines that are doing the initial cold calling to these high equity absentee owners. And then we have boots on the ground. One of my students who’s a wholesaler in Birmingham, who is actually getting on the phone and closing all these deals over the phone, and she’s just … She’s making offers over the phone. And here’s the key to it all, no matter what kind of marketing you’re doing. The key to what we have found is the followup. I don’t know my cost per lead, I should, but we’re spending on average of about $500 in marketing per deal, and our average profits are right around $8,000.

So the ROI is incredible, right. But the key to it all is follow-up. We’re finding on average, it takes three to four months from initial contact to finally doing the deal and making the money, on average about six to seven touches. And so our Podio, we use Podio, it’s super simple. We don’t have any odd fancy automation and workflows. It’s just every time that lead is touched, we create a new task to follow up again the next day, the next week, the next month. And so every lead in Podio has an open task assigned to somebody with a due date.

And all of this marketing is awesome, but unless you’re doing the followup, you’re not going to go anywhere with this. So probably I need to look at the numbers. But last I looked, it was about 80 percent, 85 percent of our deals comes from the followup. It’s not that first initial contact. That’s what I’ve … Oh, let me say one more thing too. We’re still doing texting. We’ll find landlords and for sale by owners on Craigslist and Zillow, and we send them individual personalized texts one at a time. And we’re still doing that. I found that works really well when you’re doing some more creative things like lease options and stuff. So we’re doing that in some other markets.

Matt: Sweet. So yeah, it seems to be the common answer is, you know, what’s old becomes new again, it comes back around and people are really picking up the phones and just putting in the work in and working the repetitions. What have you found, Joe, I’ll start with you since we’re talking already. What have you found to be the best approach when you’re picking up the phone and initiating these conversations, and I guess a part two of that question would be: how much training is going into your five VAs and, you know, how important is their effectiveness? Or is it just a straight numbers game?

Joe: It’s a straight numbers game, but also one of the reasons why we’re so successful with using virtual assistants for these initial cold calls is we’re talking to them every single day. A lot of people just hire VAs and expect them to take it and run with it. In fact, we’re talking to them by text or by Skype every single day, and we just started something where we’re having a once a week for 30 minutes a training where all of the VAs, we only have four or five, but they get online together once a week for some training. And so that constant regular communication is really, really critical and important.

And you asked me two questions, I forget the first one.

Matt: One was the approach, like when they pick up the phone, what does that initiation sound like?

Joe: It’s like, “Hey, sorry for calling you out of the blue. Is this Jim? We’re calling about your property at 123 Main Street. So we’re assuming that that person is Jim who owns the house at 123 Main Street. We’re not asking them-

Matt: What’s your name?

Joe: … what’s your name, do you own the house or whatever. And so, you know, we get a lot of angry noes and F yous and all of that. So we just blacklist them, you know, we don’t call him anymore after that. But when … We only, our initial prescreening is super simple, like maybe three or four questions. That lead then goes into Podio through a web form, and our local wholesaler who’s … She’s the key to all of this, she’s amazing. She immediately calls that lead back right away, and she’s onto them like white on rice. She’s calling them four or five times a day until she gets a hold of them. She’s texting them and she is super relentless, but she’s really sweet too. She’s got this nice charming southern accent, you know, which by the way, if you ever are looking to hire somebody on acquisitions, you should think about looking for somebody in the south, I’m not kidding, who’s got a sweet southern charming accent, you know, that just kind of disarms people.

But she’s really good. I mean, she calls people honey all the time. She’s got these big angry, gruff landlords that she talks to and she softens them up right away. But she’s also relentless. She’s just following up. And there’s really no fancy script that we use. We just talk to them and ask them a lot of questions and make a lot of offers.

Matt: Got to. Sean, your approach similar or do you have a different way of going about it?

Sean: Actually, there’s two different approaches we tested. One approach is where the person is diving deep on with the stellar sort of cold calling, and then they’re booking all the way to an appointment. That entails a lot more training. There’s a lot more drop off and there’s a lot more breakage. So, our approach we’re currently doing right now is just getting them on the phone, finding out if they have a house to sell. If they have a house to sell, then we immediately do a transfer to a live, a lead manager. We have three lead managers that then will take the call over and then from then they’re trained and they’ll book the appointment. The lead manager’s working in-house and the VAs are out. So that works a lot better. So the VAs are only trying to find out if they have a house to sell. And if the answer’s yes, they’ll do a transfer.

Matt: Sweet. Cody, do you have a different approach or a similar?

Cody: Pretty similar to what Sean’s doing. I’m definitely not is … You know, I listen to Sean talk and I’m just like, “Yup, that’s how to do it.” I don’t really have it together like that. To be honest, when we call I’ve tested a lot of different things and sometimes just something simple like, “Hey listen, I’m not collecting a debt and I’m not trying to sell you anything. I was in the area. I really like your house. I want to send you a big fat check if you want to sell. If not, I’ll hang up. No hard feelings. Sorry about that.” You know, but you gotta you gotta do something to break that ice. And just one more piece of advice just that we’ve learned along the way: Don’t leave a voicemail if they don’t answer. Just a little phone tip, just because I found that a lot of times I’ll hang up, I’ll call right back, I call hang up, I’ll call right back.

And if three tries, they don’t answer, then I don’t leave a voicemail, and I put them back and we’ll try calling them again. If I do leave them a voicemail, it’s a really strong hook like, you know, something like, “John, this is Cody. I got really, really great news. I really need to share it with you. You know, I have a big fat check. I want to send it your way. Listen, give me a holler back at 480-555 blah, blah, blah, blah. I’m not trying to sell you anything, but I really need to talk to you,” right.  And so it’s kind of hypey like that. And we-

Joe: Let me. I love that Cody. One of the things we do is we’ll say, “Hey, John, I got the contract right here for your house ready to go. Call me back. I got to talk to you right now.”

Matt: Perfect.

Joe: You get a ton of people really mad, but it gets them to call you, which is [inaudible 00:22:51].

Matt: The one that we do all the time here, though, we’ll call and we’ll say, “Hey, my assistant has the contract ready to go out to you but I’m not sure if she has the right address. I’d hate for this to end up in the wrong hands. So before she sends it out, give me a call.” Right. So, same type of thing.

Joe: That’s really good.

Matt: Sean, what’s your opinion on voicemail?

Sean: Yeah, we actually do something very similar. We just, you know, we don’t say we have a big fat check, but I do like that. I think I’m going to steal it. We do it, yeah, just similar, like, “We have some incredibly important information. Please give us a call ASAP [inaudible 00:23:24]-

Matt: Sweet.

Sean: I can tell you one thing, though, is that make sure you’re changing your caller ID number, literally every campaign you’re doing, because the carriers will blacklist your caller ID and your leads will drop off the cliff and you’re wondering why. So make sure you rotate it through CallRail, pull those numbers out, and just rotate them out.

Joe: Let me give you another huge tip. You break out your lists. You call them the first time in the morning. The next time you call that list, call them later in the day. And the next time, call them later in the day. So if you’ve got a VA that only … You should have like three VAs that work 9:00 to 12:00, 12:00 to 3:00, and 3:00 to 6:00, right. You need to be rotating your calls through those times zones, those time areas, because if somebody doesn’t answer their phones in the mornings, they probably never answer the phones. But they may answer their phones in the evening. So you’ve got to be rotating that list through those different hours. Does that make sense?

Matt: Yeah, totally.

Joe: Let me throw one more thing in. This is what happens when you mastermind. So best advice for somebody who’s new that’s trying to create a success habit of making these calls. Just like set a time, even though it may be in the evening, it’s better if you don’t have a VA, call every day from like nine to noon. And create a habit of calling every single day at nine to noon. Even though you’ll get a bigger response rate at night, at least you’ll force yourself to do your lead gen for at least three hours a day. I see so many people, Joe or Sean, somebody said, “You have to make offers,” right? Like, just make offers, right? I talk to students all the time, and they’ve maybe spent a lot of money on education somewhere else and then they finally somehow get into my world and they go, “I’ve been trying this real estate thing for six months.” I say, “Awesome. How many offers did you make?” And they said, “Well, I haven’t made an offer yet.” You’re like, “What? How is that possible?”

Like we gotta get to work. Like you’re writing an offer today. And when you start creating those, like, just pick up the phone and I’m going to call every single day for 90 days straight and I’m going to create that success habit, you’ll get past all that fear, all those challenges. You’ll be able to test all the best ways in your local market to get past all the objections. And at least in the beginning, don’t kid yourself. If you’re like, “Oh, I’ll call later today.’ You’re not going to call later today, right? Force yourself from nine to noon. I don’t set appointments in the morning times, I don’t do anything else. Just call.

All right, very important. Then once you get good and you start hiring other people, then you could start. Or you do VAs where it’s not your time and then you can bounce around. But I know in the beginning so many people will make every excuse under the sun, but if you create that habit, I’m telling you it’s a game changer. And right now dialing for dollars is working. It won’t work maybe next year. We don’t know, right. They keep moving the cheese. But right now, that, you’ve just heard it from three experts: It works, but you got to put in the work to make it work.

Matt: Totally. Totally. You said it’s something that … You know there’s so much you can do and you can have these great habits and you can take this from lead generation to lead conversion and you get all the way to the end. If you don’t write the offer, it was all for waste, right? You’ll never do the deal. I remember one of the videos that I’ve had that’s got the most dislikes ever on my YouTube channel was how to do more deals. And it was a very short video, I just said, “Write more offers.” And people didn’t appreciate it.

Cody: Three-second long video. Write more offers.

Matt: Write more offers. It came from Stephen King, he said, “How do you become a better writer?” And he said, “Write more.” And it was like, “Hey, there’s some truth to that,” right?

Joe: Let me say something to this, [inaudible 00:27:15], because a lot of people listening to this, maybe you’re just getting started. You don’t have the time or the resources to go and learn some fancy auto dialing software, right. Like that’s overwhelming to you. What Cody said is really good.

You need to just make it a goal to talk to five sellers a day. And if you can make, you know, offers to at least three of those five. But if you could make it a goal to talk to five sellers a day and make an offer to every one of them, even if they tell you to F off, send them an offer anyway. Right. And just get in that habit of talking to sellers. Because here’s the thing: your speed to income is directly proportional to the number of offers that you make. And if you want to make money in this business, you got to make a lot of offers. I think all four of us, when we coach our students, we give them scorecards. And the first thing that we ask them is, “How many offers have you made in the last week?”

That’s all that matters. Nothing else matters in this business.

Matt: Yup. Yeah. If you’re not writing an … If you’re not doing deals and you’re not writing offers, then you don’t have the right to complain about anything else in my opinion, right?

Joe: Exactly.

Matt: Totally.

Sean: You just have to put some numbers, just to put some numbers to it. So for an expectation, so typically, you know, with cold calling or ringless voicemail, it’s more of disruptive marketing. Someone’s going along on their day, they’re doing whatever and all of a sudden they get a call and all of a sudden boom. So the conversion rate on those for what we’re finding is 1 in 39. So one, you get one deal or one deal that comes in for every 39 leads that come in. So you got 39 leads. So that means that’s 39 offers that you’re making before you’re going to get one.

So back to Cody’s point, back to Joe’s point, back to Matt’s point. If you’re looking at it, you go, people come in and go, “Well, I’ve only made 12 offers, or I may have made seven offers or eight offers.” Well, you’re not even playing in the numbers. Get in the numbers first, make 50 offers. Then can come back and talk and now we can reassess, you know, exactly what’s happening within that offer structure.

Joe: Sean, what you’re saying is important because there’s a difference between getting excited about real estate and going out and trying to flip a house versus owning a real estate, active real estate investing business where you’re either wholesaling or flipping houses as a business, right? That business means you got to think like a businessman or woman, and you got to track your key performance indicators, your KPIs, and you’re like one of the best in the world at this. You know, I just always kept it simple. How many phone calls do I have to make to get an answer, right?

How many just rings have to happen before I get an answer on average? How many answers before I have a conversation, and you can fill out a lead intake form, which means we actually talked and it’s not a [inaudible 00:30:07], take me off your list. There’s actually a potential. Now I know how many phone calls I have to make to get an answer, how many answers before I fill out a lead intake form, how many lead intake forms before I get to a point where I can write an offer, how many written offers, before I get to one, accepted, how many accepted before I get to a closed deal and a profit check.

And if you are tracking those, you can start to see the funnel, right, and all the touchpoints that have to happen. And then, like you said, you’ve tracked it to the point where you know it takes us 39 lead intake forms or conversations before we get to that deal, right, or whatever you just said. I think it was 39.

Sean: Yeah.

Joe: So that’ll send you … You can look at your team or yourself in the mirror and go, “How much money do I want to make this month?” And then you could just go back to the front of the funnel and say, “All right, I got to 5X it to get that result on the back end because I know all the metrics in the middle.” And you could start to plan out how much money you want to make each quarter or each year. But if you’re not tracking that stuff, there’s no hope for you. And winging it is not a strategy. If you’re running a business, you’ve got to think like a business. And that’s very important.

Matt: Amen. Yeah. It creates a predictable business, right. You can send-

Joe: Yeah, it’s predictable, you get [inaudible 00:31:27] in your business, you can hire people, you can do … There’s a whole bunch of things they will allow you to do, knowing exactly those numbers so, good point Cody.

Matt: [inaudible 00:31:34].

Sean, what are you seeing in your business or the market that has you maybe concerned or maybe has you excited? and how is it changing the way you’re operating?

Sean: Concerned or excited. So first off, it’s not concerned at all, but basically what we look at every single month is inventory. We look at our current inventory every single month, how many units are currently on the market, how many pending sales are there, you know, and what’s our average monthly supply, which is roughly about 2.6 months right now. So we’re watching that every single month and in … So obviously Phoenix is going to be different from St. Louis or any other market in California, across the country.

So anybody who’s in the business right now, you know, if you’re fixing and flipping business, and if that’s going to be your core element of business, you have to watch that inventory levels. If it ticks up then you want to kind of start scaling off the whole fix and flip model, you know, and maybe go toward the, more toward the wholesale model. In Phoenix, we’re not seeing that right now. We’re seeing it anywhere … I mean, it’s literally staying within about 2.4 to 2.6 months supply. And if it starts to increase, I mean I do fix and flips as well. Our mandate is, company mandate, if there’s not at least a minimum of 100,000 [inaudible 00:32:58] we won’t touch it, you know.

But as the market changes and shifts over the next 12 to 18 months, you know, these are something we watch every single month. We’ll make a determination to take down a property or not or potentially wholesale it. So it’s all driven by the inventory and anybody can look in their market. And what I always highly suggest is look at your current inventory, look where you were a year ago, and look where you were back in 2005, and maybe in 2008 and that will give you a historical inventory level, and then as prices … I can definitely see as wholesale prices, we are pushing prices upwards to 82 to 83 percent of the actual ARV after repair value. They’ve come down a little bit. We’re actually under 80 percent, right about 78, 79 percent is our number right now.

Matt: Got it.

Joe: Is that what you’re offering, Sean, or is that what you’re selling them for?

Sean: That’s where our exit number is. Exit number of an actual true ARB is roughly 79, 78, 79 percent right now. Unless it has just ridiculous amount of rehab, the place is completely trashed.

Matt: Got it. What’s that threshold for you, Sean, as far as inventory? Maybe you said it, I might have missed it, but that threshold where you [inaudible 00:34:10] like, “Okay, maybe we’re going to pull back on the fix and flip model a little bit and kind of transition a little bit more on the quicker wholesale model.

Sean: Yeah. So currently, I mean, just good [inaudible 00:34:18] example, in basically July of 2005, there was 5,000 units on the market. The market was crazy, everything was nuts, right. In August of 2008 when Washington Mutual crashed, we had about 50,000 units on the market here in Phoenix. So 50,000 units from, five to 50,000 units. A stable market and Phoenix is about 30, 32,000 units. We’re currently sitting right now at about 16,000 units on the market right now. And we’re staying pretty steady and kind of … We’re just kind of going in a sideways channel right now. We haven’t broken down, we haven’t broken up yet. So if it breaks up, right, then we’re going to start obviously looking for basically taking that fix and flip model, kind of take it off the shelf.

Matt: Got it. Joe, what are you seeing in your business on the marketplace that has you concerned or excited? How is it changing the way you’re operating?

Joe: That’s a good question. I’ve always loved wholesaling because wholesaling works, whether the market’s going up or down. I bit my teeth in this business doing lease options in 2009 when everybody was running to the hills. So I think it’s important for people to know how to do creative deals if the market starts falling because you get more sellers that are motivated, you have less cash buyers, investor buyers maybe buying homes. So you need to learn how to buy deals creatively. Land contracts, subject-tos, owner financing, lease options. So I love wholesaling because no matter if the market, what direction it’s going, I’m in and out really quick, right. I’m not taking ownership of anything.

And even the same with lease options: you can flip or assign those lease options. You can still wholesale a land contract or a subject-to or owner financing, right. So it’s important to listen to podcasts. It’s important to get educated and to stay in touch with what’s going on in the industry. Because the cool thing about real estate too is that it’s not like the stock market where it drops and on a dime, right. The housing market always is much slower, and so you’ll always have more time to kind of see the direction that it’s going in.

And that’s why I love this business. So always, here’s the thing too, I’ll say this: I was just seeing this, I’ve been seeing this more and more on Facebook. I’m not very active in there, but I like to read and see what kind of questions people are asking. And I’m starting to see a lot more people talk about things like cash-out refinancing, right. I’m starting to see more people talk about what does it matter if it cash flows. Just buy it because it’s appreciating, just cash out refinance. Like all that same stuff that we heard way back in 2006 and 7. You’re starting to hear people talking about it again, and I’m just saying you got to be careful of that kind of stuff, right.

Matt: Yeah. I just took my son to Sports Clips over the weekend. He likes to go there and watch the TV while he gets his haircut. And two of the barbers were actually talking about the house that they’re flipping. And I was like, “Uh-oh, here we go again.”

Joe: Well Sean, tell your story real quick. When you were getting a haircut back in ’07 or something.

Sean: Yeah. Well, interestingly the same thing happened. The lady, she made $40,000 on a flip, and I currently I owned … At the time this was like early 2005 was 120 rentals, about $36,000,000 worth at the time. And literally I was like, I went back to my partner at the time and said, “We got to sell everything.” So we unloaded all of our inventory, and I’ll kind of relate it back, unowned all of our inventory in 2005 at the height of the market. So I was brilliant, right. I was like, “I’m the man.” [inaudible 00:38:05] everything, had all this cash, tens of millions … I mean millions of dollars coming in. It was insane.

But that was my brilliant move. And then my stupid move was I had to deploy the cash into investments. So I put it into land, right, in the land. And I’m going to relate this back on when we’re talking about the market and risk and what I did wrong, and then what I would do different and what I am doing different today. But the bottom line is I put money in the land. We owned $30 million dollars worth of land at the time, about [inaudible 00:38:35] about 580 lots in Phoenix. We would buy land, we’d assemble the land, we’d then title land, turning it basically into platted engineered lots. And we had them sold to builders. Right during this crash happened and all the builders backed out on it, and now we’re stuck with this land and what to do. Which got it in a very, very tough situation. Never filed bankruptcy or anything like that. I had to negotiate with lenders. And it was about a two to three-year miserable situation going through that process.

So I came out the other side, right. And I said, “Okay, I’m going to basically start wholesaling.” I wrote letters from my kitchen table just to start talking to sellers and making offers, start getting deals and crawled out of that hole that I was in. I was not only in a mental hole, but I was in a financial hole. Got out of that hole and went back and kind of looked at what’s the biggest … Why did that happen and what was the biggest mistake. So I literally, I talked to I don’t know how many countless people, and being part of Masterminds and groups and stuff like that. The bottom line is you want to protect yourself going in the future, you got to buy cash flow. That’s the number one, and obviously, Matt, that your mantra, right. You got to buy cash flow. You do not buy on speculation, right. You cannot have … You don’t buy and say, “Oh, it’s going to go up, and then I’m going to buy it,” right. That’s speculate. I did that one land.

So the land had no cash flow. I bought it on speculation because I could do a fourth depreciation on it with providing plat engineered lots. And the third key component is long-term debt. If you have longterm debt on the properties, then you can suffice any market dips or market corrections. And I had short-term debt. I had no cash flow, and I was buying on appreciation, and that was the recipe for disaster. So going on in the future, if you’re buying properties now like we just closed on a 128-bed student housing project. That project, it cashflows from the start, $130,000 the first year. We have longterm 10-year debt, 30 years [inaudible 00:40:36], 10-year debt on the property. And it’s literally cashflows and we’re not buying it for appreciation. We’re buying it … We had basically a very conservative cap rate exit on five years. But if we have to hang onto it, we can hang onto it for a full 10 years. So it’s a different approach than it was back in 2008.

Matt: So lessons learned. Good job. Cody, the biggest win that you’ve had in the last 12 months, and what did you learn from it?

Cody: Biggest win?

Matt: Yeah.

Cody: That’s kind of a weird-

Matt: Winner!

Joe: What’s a winner?

Cody: I win every day.

Sean: That’s all we do is win, win, win.

Cody: No. You know, I don’t-

Sean: Only Trump.

Cody: To be honest with you, Matt, at this point in my career, I’ve been doing this for a long time now and I mean, I made my first million at age 28, became a multimillionaire at age 30. I haven’t made under $10,000,000 a year. I’m not bragging, but it’s just, I’ve just scaled, you know. And so I’m not … Financially, I don’t think of it like money as a win anymore. My biggest win is probably the fact that I can, you know, my kids are off school right now. I’m throwing them in a car. I’m taking them now on vacation, and we’re checking out and I’m not stressed. That’s my biggest win, you know, I’m not worried about asking somebody for some time off. [inaudible 00:42:00] just going. Unfortunately where I’m taking them just flooded. I got pictures, I’m taking them to Puerto Peñasco Rocky Point for a couple of days, and then we’re going to head over to … We’re coming back and then we’re going to Cabo.

But I just got a picture: the whole place is flooded, so now I gotta scramble and figure out what we’re going to do. But, great. You know, that’s to me, if you’re talking real estate, you know, I’m now in business with my two best friends. I think that’s a major win. You know, we’re going to go flip some houses and have some fun and, you know, it’s bulletproof dude. It’s bulletproof. It’s that one thing that is always going to be there. People are always going to need a place to live. So I love, that’s why I’m so passionate about it, is it’s helped me create massive amounts of wealth. Then I went and taught other people how to create wealth, and that’s a freaking rad story to tell, you know. It’s like, what better thing to do then serve people at a deep level like that, help them achieve their financial goals and feel like a rock star in the process, and just be able to control your time. So I don’t know if that answered your question. It’s kind of hard.

Matt: Well, let me rephrase it. As good as life is for you, and it’s all panned out wonderfully, what is one thing if you had to go back and do it differently, what would that one thing be?

Cody: Oh man, I think about that a lot. I think I would have probably just told myself to get more committed sooner because I see this happen all the time with entrepreneurs. You see guys like Sean Terry or Joel McCall and they’re playing the game at a very high level, and they’re on social media, and they’re on four different social media channels, and then they’re doing big things with direct mail and they’re doing podcasting, and they’ve got their real estate business, and they got their big rental portfolios. And they got all this stuff going on, so you sit there and maybe you’re not anywhere near that and you’re like, “Oh my God, I want to do that,” right. And so you do 10 different things at 10 percent, and you don’t get any traction on any of them.

And then six months go by, a year goes by, and you start running out of motivation and you look back and you don’t feel progress and you’re defeated. Then you started abandoning ship on things. Oh, that doesn’t work, you know why … Maybe the market’s not right for that. Oh, the president’s not the right president right now. So that’s probably why that’s not working. And you’re making all these excuses. Your prices are a pain in ass and it’s depreciating. No wait, now it’s appreciating, and you know, you’re never going to get where you want to go. So if I could give myself any better advice is get committed to dominating whatever you’re going to do. Don’t dabble, don’t be average, don’t be a little bit in and try to do 10 things. Screw that, go all in. Like, be a fricking obsessed, insane maniac. And just conquer it like a savage, right.

And then when you do that, that’s when you can start to add the other pieces to it. You know, if you’re going to be the best on the phones, be the fricking best. If you’re going to dominate YouTube, and I think the thing I’m most excited about is YouTube right now. I think it’s the future. I think right now, whoever owns YouTube, as far as in their niche, in their market. I’m seeing guys right now that are putting out a video a day on YouTube. They’re relentlessly posting. They’re driving all around the country doing collaborations with other influencers. They’re doing whatever it takes to build their little brand on YouTube, and they’re saying things like, “If you want to partner with me, click the link in the description below or give me a call.”

And they’re positioning themselves as a real estate expert, and they’re raising private money from all these people that have lazy money, and they’re coming to this person because they … What happens on YouTube is unique. You see a video, you like what they have to say, you binge watch 40 more videos from them, right. And now you fall in love. And that person gets put up on a pedestal like a rockstar. So then when you finally get an opportunity to talk with them, you’re like, “Wow, you’re a real estate expert. I want to do … I didn’t even know you want a partner?” And they’re like, “I got, you know, I’m dentist, I got 250 grand.”

It’s like, okay, we’re going to take your 250 grand, we’re going to go buy three rentals together. And by the way, you can pay me five grand as a processing fee to be my partner. And I’m watching kids and people dominate their spaces, and they have 50 rentals, 100 rentals, 175. And I’m like, “How the frick did you get so many rentals?”

Oh, by the way, they didn’t use any of your own money. 100 percent of it came from somewhere else. And all they did was dominate  YouTube. I just gave you my biggest secret that I’m focusing on right now.

Matt: Nice. So I think the overall lesson though there is … And it’s been a mantra around here for the last 24 months at least because we made this mistake: we’ve tried to go so wide so fast. But to go deep before going wide, conquer that before you add something to that layer. Right?

Cody: Yup.

Matt: I like it. That’s, yeah, I couldn’t agree more. Joe, what’s your biggest [inaudible 00:47:20]. Go ahead, Sean.

Sean: I just think Cody’s one of the best at that. You know, it’s funny because we both had like, I think it was like 8,000 Instagram followers at the time. Cody goes to a … He goes to Tony Robbins’ event. He’s doing on social media, he’s jumping around, [inaudible 00:47:38], right. And literally I think something shifted in his brain when it came to his commitment level, and I think he chose Instagram as to be the thing. And I saw him go from 8,000 to literally 1.3 million in a record-setting time. He went all in and I do absolutely think, you know, obviously whatever you put your mind to, whatever you’re committed to, do with everything you’ve got, and you’ll be amazed at what happens on the other side.

The problem with people I see that are getting started, and I think we talked about earlier, is people come in with a, you know, a half-assed commitment. They, you know, partially committed, and then they’re committed and if they don’t get the results, then they’re not committed now. Then they want to change to something else or they’re, you know what I mean?

So the question is, what’s it gonna take for you to get so committed for so long that you’re going to do whatever it takes, and that’s where the tenacity comes in. That’s where the persistence comes in. That’s where if you are so committed and you have a longterm view and say, “I’m gonna to do this for five years,” then guess what, if you suck for the first six months, guess what, it’s a five-year game, man. It’s a five-year plan. Who cares if you suck for six months, guess what, you will get it if you do it long and hard enough.

Matt: Right. Amen. Joe, let’s bring this home. What’s the best book you’ve read in the last 12 months, and what’d you find most valuable about it?

Joe: You see that. You teed him right up for that. This is my book. No, I’m just kidding. The best book.

Matt: You read a lot. You’ve always got the most recent thing.

Joe: Yeah, but I was caught off guard. I tell you a book I’m reading right now that I’m really getting into and digging in. Where’s Kindle? Here it is, Kindle. [inaudible 00:49:37]-

Cody: Do you want me to go, Joe, to save you.

Joe: Please.

Matt: Go ahead, Cody.

Cody: All right. This is my favorite new book, and right now I’m reading like four books at one time. But the one that I like geeked out on the most lately is Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. [inaudible 00:49:54]. If you want to go deep into negotiation and understand the theory behind positioning and influence and negotiation, that book is [inaudible 00:50:03]. Like I’ve read a lot of like neuro-linguistic programming books and art of negotiating books. This guy is a freaking beast when it comes to negotiation. So it’s Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. You will not be disappointed, and it applies to real estate.

Matt: Awesome. Yeah. It’s come up here on the show more than once and it’s been in my Audible library for at least a year. I think I’ll, Cody might have pushed me over the edge to actually listen to it now. Sean, best book in the last 12 months, what did you find most valuable about it?

Sean: Right. I got two books. So one book I’m reading right now that’s really, really good that just came out, and the book that’s a tried and true book that’s great for just personal, literally personal growth, personal progress in life and business. So that book is Organize Tomorrow Today. It’s a great, great book. It’s literally one … And anybody I’ve ever recommended it to literally texted me back and say, “That book is insane. It’s so good.” It’s literally Organize Tomorrow Today, and it’s a phenomenal book. Go check it out.

The book I’m reading currently right now, it’s a great book, is Joe Fairless’ book, who if you know from the Best Ever Real Estate podcast, great guy. 28-year-old kid, built a $400 million dollar multifamily portfolio. Guy’s a total stud, right. So he has a 400-page book right now called The Best Ever Real Estates or Apartment Syndication Book, and exactly how to do it. It’s very technical, very detailed, explains the entire process from start to finish. And I thought I got some great takeaways from that. I highly recommended it.

Matt: Yeah. Great guy. Great friend of the show. We just had him on the show I think two weeks ago. So I didn’t know about this book. Gave him ample time to, opportunity to share it. But thanks Sean for sharing that. All right, Joe, did you figure it out?

Joe: Thank you. There’s a book called Endurance. It was written in the fifties by … It’s about Ernest Shackleton. And it’s a great book about leadership, and never giving up. I loved the book. And I’m sure they’ve done movies about it, but the book is … And there’s been several books. It’s called Endurance. It’s about Ernest Shackleton. Great book. And it’s a historical book, but it’s really easy to read. And then the book I’ve been reading right now that I’m really getting into, it’s called Giving It All Away and Getting It All Back Again, written by David Green, the guy who started Hobby Lobby. And it’s about being generous, about living generously. Not just financially, although that’s important, but also with giving away of your time, your treasures, your talents, your knowledge, which I think all four of us here do a lot of that in the real estate and the business space.

But I like hanging out with people who are generous. I don’t like hanging out with people that are stingy and hold all of their secrets to themselves, you know. So that’s a really good book. Giving It All Away.

Matt: Awesome. I’m glad you actually brought that up, Joe, because you three are three of the most generous people that I know. I’ve gotten so much from you and I just want to do something to share this and give back to you guys as much as I possibly can. Joe, if someone wanted to get in touch with you, what would be the best way for them to do that?

Joe: Good question. Whatever you do, don’t-

Matt: Do you want me to come to you?

Joe: No, no.

Matt: All right.

Joe: Whatever you do, stop sending me Facebook messages. I don’t read those things, and it’s frustrating because people get so mad at me that I’m not responding to their Facebook messengers. But anyway, the best way probably is just through my podcast, Real Estate Investing Mastery podcast.

Matt: Perfect. Perfect. One of the longest running ones on iTunes. Congrats on that. Cody Sperber, what’s the best way for someone to get in contact with you?

Cody: Yeah, my address is … No, I’m just kidding. Yeah, just send them … Just have people showing up at my house. It’d be pretty funny. You know what, on Instagram, I’m at cleverinvestor. I’m pretty much at cleverinvestor on all social platforms, but, you know, I’m out there. I’m out there and I put myself out there. I invite people into my world on a daily basis. I’m constantly going live. I got marketing stamina, so I’m always putting myself out there, and I think, you know, if you want to come hang out find me on social, download my book at It’s a free resource for you so that way at least if you want to learn how to get into the real estate investing business, that’s a great step-by-step guide.

And I want to … Can I just leave them with something real quick?

Matt: Sure.

Cody: You know, you have an amazing array of talent right here on this Mastermind, and I agreed to do it because I respect you guys so much. And the biggest needle movers in my life have always been and come out of events in Masterminds. When you get plugged into a community like what you put together, Matt, or Sean’s community, or Joe’s community, I mean like, it’s different than just buying a product or course from a lot of other gurus that are out there.

You guys really take a lot of time to create that community environment, and I think it’s so needed in the real estate space because real estate’s scary. It’s really freaking scary the first year. And my best advice to somebody who’s new is get plugged into somebody like Sean or Joe or Matt and stop wearing this I’m bloody, I’m beat up, I got scars as a badge of honor. I’m figuring it out on my own. Screw that. Who wants bloody noses and to get beat up every single day? Pick up where these guys have left off. They’re playing the game at such a high level. They’ve been through decades of trial and error. Stop kidding yourself that it’s cool to fail miserably and figure it out. What’s cool is getting in the game, learning from those that have already cracked the code, and then going off and making your millions of dollars, and then using that money to empower yourself to do cool shit like help your environment, help your community, you know, cut checks to solve big world problems, take care of your family, whatever you’re into.

That’s cool, right. Being broke sucks, right. Being broke’s not cool. Being average is not cool. But figuring out on your own is definitely the wrong way to go, especially in the real estate space. And you’re at the right place with this guy Matt. So, you know-

Joe: Let me add to that something that’s really important too. You can’t go broke making money. Okay, I’ll say it again. You can’t go broke making money. So what are you focusing on? Like here’s the thing. Focus will make you rich. Focus will make you rich. So if you want to be successful in business, focus on what matters most. Become brilliant at the basic things, right. I wrote a book called Brilliant at the Basics. Focus on those basic things, talking to five sellers a day. If you don’t have leads, if you can’t afford marketing, go find other wholesalers out there that have old leads and offer to follow up with their old leads for them and split the deals with them or something like that.

So you literally have no excuses, none out there. If you focus on your highest revenue-generating activities, which is talking to sellers and making offers, you’re going to have success in this business. And I just think that’s important. You can’t go broke making money. Focus will make you rich, you know. Shiny objects will make you go blind, so get rid of those shiny objects and just focus on those basic elemental things in this business and you’re going to do fine. You’re going to crush it.

Matt: Amen. Thanks for that Joe. Sean, if someone wanted to get in contact with you, what would be the best way for them to do that?

Sean: They can go to,, I have a book that they can download for free, read it if they want. And to add to what these guys are saying, I remember you and I, Matt, sat down in Tommy Bahama Café, Laguna Beach, California. I remember that, had a couple of cocktails. Beautiful day outside. How long ago was that?

Matt: You had a huge impact on my wardrobe, Sean, since that day.

Sean: Great. [inaudible 00:58:27]. But we had a great time. And we were both not there. We were both still figuring it out. We were both, you know, bouncing ideas off [inaudible 00:58:36], that you were very giving. I was very … We went back and forth. We’re still navigating the path of really trying to make our way in the industry, make our path, you know. And I remember having, it was a great conversation, we had a great time.

And to add to what these guys are talking about, to kind of wrap it up, and then now I’ve seen what you’ve accomplished, and what’s great about it is you’ve had relentless focus, which, you know, talks about what Joe talks about. You’ve been part of Masterminds, you surround yourself with the right people Cody’s talking about. And you had one other element that wasn’t discussed and it was the consistent action. You had absolute consistency, and from that meeting, and from that [inaudible 00:59:19] I think I took away: you have consistently put out content, consistently put out podcasts, consistently been there.

And if you look at that effort and energy of being consistent, you’ve risen to the top of the game in all aspects from your, the coaching that you’ve done, the Masterminds that you’re putting on right now, the education, your training, and stuff. Which, and it’s created being now an industry leader, and it’s done through all those different aspects and being consistent and putting your head down, staying focused and surrounding yourself with the right people. So, I commend you for doing that. You’ve done an incredible job, thoroughly impressive what you’ve accomplished, and-

Joe: Yeah, Matt. Do you know how much stuff I’ve stolen from you? I mean …

Matt: Yes, I actually do Joe. [inaudible 01:00:09].

Joe: No, but I don’t steal it. I model it. But, I’m really grateful for you, Matt. You’re such a great teacher. You lay things out super simple, and I really look up to you. The rest of you guys sort of, but like Matt, you keep doing what you’re doing. And I love your passion for simplifying things for the average investor. You know what I’m saying?

Sean: I just want to say one thing: I wish I could grow a beard and part it just the way he does with a little gray on the [inaudible 01:00:46] like that.

Matt: A nice accent he’s got going on. Right? That was awesome.

Well, guys, I got like 17 more questions, so go ahead and block out the rest of the day. No, let’s wrap it up and maybe we can do a part two. All right?

Joe: I’m open to that.

Matt: Let’s put that on the books for soon. Alrighty, so thanks so much guys. Let’s see, I had some closing comments here that I was going to read. Oh, everybody, thanks for participating in this episode of Mastermind Monday.

Alrighty. So we’ll do it again. All right, so if you’d like to do deals, stay tuned here to the show, we’re here six days a week now. You can see that nothing is held back. Everything that you need to do deals is right here on the show. If you’d like to go fast, check out one of our three guests today, or go to and we’ll see you next week on another episode of Epic Real Estate Investing. Take care.