Multifamily Investing with Matt Owens | 581


Matt Owens

Meet Matt Owens! A successful real estate entrepreneur, who helped us enormously when we started our real estate journey. Today, he shares his wisdom and advises you how to develop and manage a multifamily investing business. Stay with us and learn how finding a multifamily deal differs from searching for a single-family, how to build a valuable network, and how to protect yourself from the biggest risk that comes with establishing a multifamily property.

Matt Owens

What You Will Learn About Multifamily Investing with Matt Owens:

  • What the main focus of Matt’s business is
  • Why he made a shift towards multifamily investing
  • The difference between multifamily and single family when it comes to finding the deal
  • How to build a valuable network
  • How Matt Owens manages to get a house for 10 cents on the dollar
  • The biggest risk in regard to establishing a multifamily and how to protect yourself from it
  • His ongoing projects
  • How you can find out more about Matt Owens and his business

Whenever you’re ready, here are a few ways we can help:

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Speaker 1: This is Theriault Media.

Matt Theriault: All righty. So, please help me welcome to the show, Mr. Matt Owens. Matt, welcome to Epic Real Estate Investing.

Matt Owens: Thank you very much, Matt. It’s very nice to be on again.

Matt Theriault: Yeah. It is welcome back, isn’t it? This is what? I think the third time, maybe.

Matt Owens: Hey, we get to talk about new topics every time and new strategies. It’s pretty cool.

Matt Theriault: Absolutely. I’ve done the … Here we are just starting out the ninth year. We’re now six days a week.

Matt Owens: Wow.

Matt Theriault: You lose track of those-

Matt Owens: That is some commitment, man.

Matt Theriault: Yeah.

Matt Owens: That’s awesome.

Matt Theriault: I like it, though. It’s a lot of fun. I get to stay in touch with all the people, and nurture my relationships, and learn things, and make contributions. So, it’s been a total blessing that I’d had no idea was coming my way.

Matt Owens: It’s amazing what happens when you start to reach out and just find ways of helping people and teach. And, you [crosstalk 00:01:05]-

Matt Theriault: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Owens:… so much in return in those relationships. It’s amazing. So-

Matt Theriault: Yep. [inaudible 00:01:09]. Couldn’t agree with you more. And I think … I’m sure I’ve said it here before, ’cause I’ve said the story before, but just if you’re all just meeting Matt for the very first time, and you’ve heard my strategy about getting famous with property flyers and selling other people’s properties, that’s how I got started. I started with $0.00. I didn’t even know direct mail worked back then. I didn’t know what a PPC was. But, went out, and I found Matt’s properties before I even knew what turnkey was. And, I started representing Matt’s properties, and that started this whole thing. And, went down this giant rabbit hole, and here we are today as Epic Real Estate. So, that’s who Matt is to me. I’m eternally grateful. He had no idea the contribution he was making to me back then, but I’ll never forget. So, good to have you back, Matt.

Matt Owens: Thanks, sir. Appreciate it.

Matt Theriault: You bet.

Matt Owens: Yeah. This is real estate’s … Real estate’s a fun game, and we’re all into all kinds of new stuff now.

Matt Theriault: Right? So, bring me up to speed. What’s the latest going on over there at Owens Capital Group. Is that what the name … That’s still the company name?

Matt Owens: OCG Properties. But, I do have OCG Capital now as well. And then, we have numerous entities set up for … You would be sick by our legal structure, but that’s ’cause you’ve got different strategies going in different ways. So-

Matt Theriault: That’s why I have a fund now, ’cause I got rid of all the LLCs.

Matt Owens: That’s huge. And, we’ve actually put a debt fund together just for our debt only, which will come out next year. But really, right now, we’re focused on … We’re flipping about five houses a month still out of state in Memphis, Tennessee. We also invest and lend in different markets, and stuff like that, too. We have some lending going on in St. Louis, in Little Rock, in North Carolina, in Florida, and multiple markets around the country. And, we also do a lot of value add multifamily as well. And, that has been really lucrative for us in the last couple of years, of being able to reposition assets and focus on different value add strategies there within the multifamily segment.

We also raise capital for syndications and that type of things. And, for investors, by investors, non-profit. So, trying to dabble in everything. But, I’m really, honestly, focused on the retirement play now with the two little ones. I’m like, “Let’s go to multifamily. I just wanna hold these things long-term.” And, there are different strategies for different types of multifamily-

Matt Theriault: [crosstalk 00:03:24].

Matt Owens:… [crosstalk 00:03:25]. And, I think that’s the game plan, right? That’s the retirement vehicle right there, long-term, just holding that stuff without having to flip, without have to lend and do all kinds of that active stuff that we all love doing. But at the same time, I’d rather spend more time with my kids, you know? So-

Matt Theriault: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah. Bring me up to speed. You’ve made this shift, right? This shift in focus where you’re not doing as many single families. Still got a foot-

Matt Owens: [crosstalk 00:03:50].

Matt Theriault: … [crosstalk 00:03:50] water over there. But, made the shift towards multifamily. And, you kind of touched on a little bit. Both have their pros and cons. Get a little bit more granular on what the reason for the shift was for you.

Matt Owens: So, with a single family home, you’re gonna buy a house and start to build that portfolio from there. And then, you get smaller chunks of cash flow. You’re looking at … You can get really good bank financing with it. Once you max out at your 10 loans, you can go the commercial route and get some commercial financing on single families. But, the economies of scale just … It’s tough to build, but it’s a great starting point to say, “Hey, let’s go get 10 of these things, or 15 of these things, and start to build them. And then, trade up as the market goes.” It’s a great strategy.

You can do the same thing on the multifamily side. Once you kind of have a ton of … some good wealth, and a good foundation, and a good understanding of how to operate these types of assets, you can go through and start building it at the higher level. You just realize you just get a lot more bang for your buck on those when it comes to cash flow. If I was to do a joint venture on a single family home, my split might be 50 bucks a month, or something like that. Versus a joint venture on multifamily, I could be making 10, 20, 30 grand a year, 40 grand a year off of that depending on the size and complexity of that deal.

Matt Theriault: Right.

Matt Owens: And so, looking at that, the capital sources are thereafter developing the relationships over that period of time. So, I’m starting to go that direction and seeing some big wins. For example, we just finished a 30 unit building that we bought, renovated, and repositioned at increased rents where we were into it for about $1.15 million. We bought it for 780. We put a bunch of rehab into it to make sure that thing was up and running. And, we sold it for 1.75. And, we just did a 19 unit that we were into for $950,000. We bought it for 149 grand. It was ridiculous. It was a shell.

But redoing a property like that, from start to finish, including doing a 12 unit that was built in 1915, you learn so many horrible lessons that you’re like, “Okay. Foundation, plumbing, let’s reframe every window and door from wood rot.” And, right now we’re doing a 16 unit that we bought for $400,000. And, we’re putting about 600 into it. We’ll be into it for about 1.1 when we’re done, and we can sell it for 1.75. But, we had to reframe the entire thing. There were fire damage and wood rot. And luckily, the brick exterior was good, you know? So-

Matt Theriault: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Owens: But, it was $75,000 worth of framing cost on that thing and gutting the whole thing. So, it’s a big project.

And if you look at the numbers, if you break down the math on all those things, the power that it gives you to understand what things cost, and how much a kitchen costs, and how much each individual aspect costs, it’s very similar to a single family home. But, you just duplicate those numbers across the board to get to your total numbers. And, it works really, really, well. There are some additional things you have to do on the due diligence side. But, the 19 unit that I was just talking about, we sold that … We were into it for 950, and we sold it for 1.85. And so, as soon as you have that kind of real estate cracking, you’re pretty much hooked, you know?

Matt Theriault: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Owens: When you get a win like that, you’re going, “Okay. I’m all into this. I gotta keep going.” And, the only reason I really sold them was because of the size of the units. I wanna hold 50+ units at a time and great. The lower ones, it kind of makes sense to reposition for different investors that need that asset, like a 1031 exchange investor, or an international client that needs it for tax purposes, or something like that. Because, if I was to bring in investor money on something like that be the operator, I could bring in my own money and make a decent return. But, if I was to bring in and do it the right way, using other people’s money, then giving them that return on investment leaves me with such a small amount of cash flow that it doesn’t even really make sense to hold it long-term on something small if I’m giving that piece up. Does that make sense?

Matt Theriault: Yeah, yeah. Let’s back up a little bit, ’cause there are all kinds of stuff in there we could talk about.

Matt Owens: Yeah. A lot of cool stuff. Yeah.

Matt Theriault: Yeah. I forget to prepare myself when I start talking to you, because it goes on, and on, and on.

Matt Owens: I know. [crosstalk 00:08:06].

Matt Theriault: No, [inaudible 00:08:06]. I love talking to you, ’cause you’re a wealth of information. You can tell you’re an actual practitioner. You’re in the trenches. And then, you get really excited about it, too, which is always contagious. Let me ask you, what’s the big difference between multifamily and single family when it comes to just finding the deal?

Matt Owens: So, the single-family you have systems and process in place, and a lot more supply of that, right? A lot more supply to go after. So, you can mass mail. You can do the pay by click marketing. You can do a lot of those different facets that you can do on the multifamily, but you have some extra work involved. Like, doing a skip tracing and finding the owner through a [inaudible 00:08:49]. Or, getting through the management company to get to that owner, and making an offer for repositioning when the management company isn’t gonna let you talk to that owner because they want that business instead of you. There are differences with that.

A lot of it could be from different agents, and commercial agents, in that market that you develop relationships with. Just keep sending you off-market deals as much as possible. But, a lot of the times when you get to the agent level, a lot of them are pick through. They got their buyers that they’re gonna go through first already, especially if they’re seasoned commercial agents. And, you just wanna show value, and be there, and say, “I got the proof of funds. Let me go for this. Send me the next thing, and I’ll take care of it.” And, be as professional as you can, and show them that you’re gonna perform as best you can. And, keep on them as much as you can. Keep a database of commercial agents that you can go through. Also, the local [RIAs 00:09:40] and things like that, finding those different owners of these properties is key.

But, you can do searches and get lists of multifamily and all the owners as well. I know [Richter’s 00:09:51] Lists has started some of those … Chris Richter’s starting some of those different opportunities where they’re farming some of that data. But, they’re trying to differentiate it between zip codes, which is very hard on multifamily. So, your data can be very flawed on multifamily because you have one property that’s fully renovated and well done, that has all the systems done, and maybe another one that’s fully renovated but doesn’t have plumbing, and electrical, and HVAC, or has a couple weird things to it, or the layout is off. And so, you get lower rents. And so, comparing your properties, sometimes, can be really difficult across the board, ’cause they vary so much. And, it’s really hard to get an appraisal for a property because you have to know that those other properties cash flowed at.

Matt Theriault: Right.

Matt Owens: So, some of those are some of the main differences, I think, between the two. And, finding them is … it’s more relationship driven versus data and mailer type [crosstalk 00:10:50].

Matt Theriault: Property driven, right?

Matt Owens: [crosstalk 00:10:51].

Matt Theriault: Got it. So, with those, the more bang for your buck also comes with more effort for your bang.

Matt Owens: Yes, yes.

Matt Theriault: Right?

Matt Owens: Right, and putting in that extra effort on the multifamily side, with that extra labor that it takes to get that information, is totally worth it to do that, and because you’re dealing with a much lower population. You don’t have thousands and thousands you can mail on multifamily. You might have 2000 in the market segment you want to be in because you’re going to take out a bunch of zip codes that are just not in a great area or you don’t want to deal with.

Matt Theriault: Got it. Okay, and then it said something here, and I’ll back up on this, might be changing the subject just a little bit, but I want to ask you before I forget, is that frequently people will say, and I am one of them, because it’s how I built a big portion of my business right in the beginning, was going to [inaudible 00:11:44] events and being able to leverage those relationships and that environment with a bunch of like-minded people, and you know, I was able to create a lot of opportunity for myself out of those events. You essentially run a big [inaudible 00:11:59] type club, and it’s almost a chain now, right? You’ve got multiple branches of it, and you’ve been running it for a while. And I know you wouldn’t be running it if it wasn’t worth it to you as well. I mean, you’ve got a big heart and you’re a giver, and that you like your kids more than you like [inaudible 00:12:15] and there are other things you’d rather do with your time, but you do it because it’s useful, and there’s a reason for it.

What would you say, if you could point out two or three things, like best practices for somebody going to a [inaudible 00:12:27] group, what’s the best thing for them to do to create the opportunity for themselves in those groups?

Matt Owens: The first thing is to focus on the right people. So focus on connectors, property connectors. So it’s not just the wholesalers in the room that you’re looking for. You’re looking for the people that have those relationships to those properties, which are CPAs and attorneys and private lenders and everybody that surrounds that industry. The real estate agent might be one, you know, the wholesaler might be one, but you have a whole other plethora of other suppliers that see properties coming and going, constantly, from their clients. And you being a resource for them can get you in the door much greater than a wholesaler that already picked up a lot of those profits. And wholesalers can be great too, but you know, they’re already going to see that value and try and pick it up from you as much as possible.

And so that is one. Second, go through and make sure you like write down the people and document and put them in a database, the people that you meet, so you can follow up with them. So many people don’t follow up. I found when I was going to, I was actually in the beginning going to four a week, every single week, and it was the best way to raise money. It was like literally the best thing I could have ever done from a relationship standpoint, for raising money and also finding opportunity, and seeing what other people are doing to make money in different ways, and coming up with ideas. ’cause you just, that’s like the whole thing, like you can stick and move, and I found out about our cellar financing class through the networking piece and went to a two-weekend course that changed the face of my business completely in multiple different ways. But I think tracking and meeting with the right people I think are the two biggest things, and staying consistent. Like having a plan, where you’re going through and writing down every [inaudible 00:14:20] club in that area, and trying to actually hit those up and document the people where you met them from those clubs, so that you can see which ones are turning into capital sources, which ones are turning into a bunch of professional resources that are huge for you, or property acquisition situations.

So those are the things that I think are the biggest pieces to really be efficient at in that working.

Matt Theriault: So number one, being of value and being a resource to people, right? Nothing new there. Basically, the whole idea of the give before you ask. Number two is collect contacts and follow up with them, and then number three is basically be consistent and kind of systemize it, right? Yeah. I would say all three of those work really well, and how it worked for me is that I always went with the property, so I was always of value to somebody, because I’d just promote on what was in it for them. I always collected contacts and always followed up with them, with opportunities, and yeah, I put every single [inaudible 00:15:20] club within a 60-mile radius on my calendar and made sure I was there with my property.

Matt Owens: That’s the key right there, you’ve got to have a calendar.

Matt Theriault: Yeah, so without us even comparing notes, you touched on all three of them, that is what worked for me, so cool. Thanks for allowing me to regress there a little bit.

Matt Owens: No problem. It’s one of the biggest suppliers of your properties and your resources, and that’s what makes you powerful in this business is those resources.

Matt Theriault: Yep. And when we’re talking about multifamily being more of a relationship gain than it is a marketing gain, then that’s even more important, isn’t it?

Matt Owens: Absolutely.

Matt Theriault: Perfect. So let’s talk about, to me, it’s the big elephant in the room, and I kind of know the answer but I want to hear what you say. You know, you buy a house, 60 cents on the dollar, 70 cents on the dollar, and that’s a big hit for a lot of people in most markets. You’re talking about, you’re buying stuff 10 cents, 20 cents on the dollar, right? So how are you able to create such huge spreads? What happens in that process?

Matt Owens: So, for example, the one that was a 19 unit was, you know, we’re looking at what the value is going to be at the backend after the value add component. And you get so much more bang for your buck when you go from $150000 shell of property, completely, and put $650000 of rehab into it. That’s a big risk, for that [crosstalk 00:16:48] right? And this was a bank, for example, I developed relationships with really old school realtors that had every banking relationship you could find, that is like, “Hey, get rid of this thing,” and you know, someone overbid me and they put in like $225000 for the bid, and I was second and they came back to me when they didn’t perform, and I’m like, “Yeah, I got you. Don’t worry about it. I’m taking it down.”

And I was nervous. Like I was like thinking, “Hey, this thing might be worth $900000 afterward, I’m not quite sure, you know, what’s the rehab going to be?” And you know, turns out I was in it for $950000 and then we sold it for $1800000, but at the same time, so that was like a 50% spread as far as like cost to value, so you’re always looking at your cost to value, not really your purchase price, ’cause you could buy something that’s a shell, a single family home, and get it for 10 cents on the dollar if it needs $90000 of rehab and it’s worth $120000, you know?

So it’s not going, the purchase price isn’t as important as the total cost to value on that, which really could add up a ton when you’re talking about the, you know, you can do the rehab on the inside and be kind of consistent with what you think normally would be on the inside of a single family and kind of price that stuff out, but when you’re talking about doing the exterior multifamily, you have multiple building situations, with multiple roofs, you have big-time landscaping costs, not something small. You have the cement driveways and parking lot restriping and recementing and gated access points and environment remediation issues, if you’re getting that test done up front and everything. So there are big-ticket items on the outside that can really add that cost. So we can get things for cheap, but really, the way the math works, all you’re focused on to get that market value is, “What is my rent going to be, times so many units, minus my vacancy rate, minus all my expenses, come into my cash flow and what’s my cap rate?”

So if I can build up, I know that I can sell at a seven or eight cap on average, eight cap is usually no problem, seven cap is a little more difficult to sell at. You need the right buyer that uses the right tax benefits or the right situation for that. But this is you build it so it’s a perfect up and running property, fully renovated and like everything done to it and pretend like that’s what your cost has got to be on that project, and then you go through and say, “Okay, what’s my sale price?” And minus vacancy factor, I usually factor in, you know, 10% and a couple percent for bad debts and that type of thing, and then you’re estimating your expenses and repairs and insurance and taxes and all of those items, just like you would on a single family, but then you’ll also have utilities and commercial insurance and that type of stuff to consider, and commercial financing, which is a total other ball game. And so really it’s a math play.

You’re saying, “What’s it worth at my cap rate, and what am I going to be into it for, and is that spread big enough?” And it’s all a cap rate type mentality, what kind of cash flow can you sell? And you have to know what cap rates usually go for in that market, which every single one of the brokers’ opinions that you see on Loop Net and everything else, they say, “Oh, yeah, it’s eight cap or nine cap.” It’s just you look at the insurance and you look at all the taxes, you look at everything else and it’s all just completely fake, so you have to be really careful with what they call a cap rate.

Matt Theriault: Right. With everything you just said there, 100%, I’m right there on board with you, and I think I’m a pretty smart person when it comes to evaluating these types of things, because it is really just one giant math equation, right? It’s just pluses and minuses, pluses and minuses and then multipliers and there you’ve got your value. If you get all of that right, what can you warn people about? What can go wrong?

Matt Owens: I mean, so your biggest risks in this situation are the rehab, in any of this. If you know your numbers upfront and you can reasonably predict your rent comps, because you’re seeing what’s out there on the market, unless there’s a rent drop, you know, you want to maybe be a little conservative upfront and then target a higher rent after you’re done, but be more conservative on your underwriting upfront, for rent volatility in the market, because most of these jobs are longer, right? But the renovation piece and the contract is just the hardest piece to deal with. Like this 19 unit property that we did, right in the middle of the contract job, a gigantic rehab, he’s asking me questions about, “How do I go get audited financials so I can get licensed and bonded for this big commercial project over here that I need to do?” Versus we’re having tight controls on the money. We’re paying for all materials and we’re bidding labor only for him, and we only let them do labor, and then we also get lien waivers for every time he pays one of his main subs, like a

… You know, like a plumber or electrician or HVAC guy, those lien waivers in this contract is key, and the funds control is how you protect yourself from that issue, and then you have penalties in place for timing which, you know, this guy hooed and hawed like crazy and I conceded quite a bit, even though I shouldn’t have just because I didn’t want to deal with a headache from him, but in reality, he was trying to get this giant bond and asking me how I get bonded, and I’m telling him, well, they’re going to want audited financial statements, how do you know where you’re at right now with your money? And he goes, “Oh, if I have money in the bank, then I’m doing okay,” and I’m going, “Oh crap.”

Like how much money do you have of mine right now? So immediately in my head. So I realized he had $20,000 and I’m like, “Okay, great. Can you do me a favor and give me those receipts before I get you more funding?” And immediately take away all control over that situation. And you realize very quickly that you think 90% of business owners are bad with their financials and their money. Think about the contractors that are out there working with their hands and aren’t focused on money and financial or any kind of financial education. Your biggest risk is always that team member and how well, and what they’re going to do because they can screw you just because of their own incompetence, let alone their ethics. Which is already in question 90% of the time with most contractors. I see how they bid homeowners versus bidding investors already.

It’s a total different bidding war. You just see what they need to do to survive and I think that’s the biggest risk is that construction risk. Making sure they have worker’s comp, general liability insurance, and those contracts are in place and funding all materials yourself and not letting them keep those extras where you have another rehab manager in place that’s outside the situation managing them and controlling the materials and communicating with you outside of even the general contractor. Because they will screw you. You have to have the checks and balances. They’ve screwed us multiple times. It’s part of the business, it sucks. Just, hopefully, it’s not too big.

Matt Theriault: Why is real estate investing education so expensive? Do you know what it cost us to get this information?

Matt Owens: Yeah. I look back at the [inaudible 00:24:23] stuff and I look back and go it was a great education, but it’s a base knowledge and you realize what those guys went through now. You have a whole another level of respect for what they went through. It’s like wow.

Matt Theriault: Yeah. It was about five years ago, I decided I was going to make this leap from single family to multi-family. I had the math down like this is a home run. This is a can’t lose deal and brought some friends into the deal and crashed and burned, all from everything you just went over right now. It’s not the real estate that’s risky. It’s the people that are risky right?

Matt Owens: Yeah, yeah. It’s crazy because you can … it’s real easy to have … I feel like a lot of these wins that I’ve had, I’ve been in a good market. Things reposition right in the middle of a deal. There’s a lot of things that can change. There’s a major risk to doing this kind of renovation. You can try to mitigate it as best you can, but at the same time, there’s always risk involved. You can’t get around it. But there are major rewards if you can get it down pat. The crash and burn that you had, probably put you ahead of the game of every single real estate investor that you probably know from that standpoint as far as, every time you take a loss, you learn way more than when you had a win.

Matt Theriault: Yeah, I just saw a meme from, I think Bill Gates. It said, “Success is a terrible teacher.”

Matt Owens: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Theriault: You think you’re invincible.

Matt Owens: In the last crash, we were doing so well, I realized that my lack of ability to stick and move and maneuver came from the lack of taking those hits and thinking that I was great from doing well all of a sudden. It was just the market.

Matt Theriault: Right. All right. We’ve got a good picture of the upside, a good picture of what to manage to make sure that you get that upside. With all that in mind, what are you working on right now? What are you most excited about right now Matt?

Matt Owens: I’m working on a 64 unit project right now that, it looks like it might be about a two million dollar rehab and about a million dollar purchase that’s a full renovation. That thing is up and running right now and starting to, we’re getting bids on our construction and all that kind of stuff to make our offers on this project. That looks like a really, really interesting prospect. I have a good relationship with the seller.

And then, we’re working on a couple giant single family home packages, our lending business and really, we’re starting to coach a lot of different flippers in different markets and things like that too and helping them sell properties and move assets. It’s really interesting the different income sources you can make in real estate if you have those right relationships and the right teams on the ground in multiple markets. But like you said, making sure those team members succeed is super important. The 64 unit is really probably going to be a home run for us if we get it for the right pricing and we can get the rehab bid down a little bit.

I think we can probably make a million dollars on that project if we’re able to reposition that thing into the right asset. But, it’s interesting, when you’re raising capital for real estate for multi-family, because that’s something we really haven’t discussed yet is the capital component of that. When you’re dealing with smaller units like duplexes, fourplexes, up to 10, 20 units that aren’t super expensive, maybe under a million dollars or under $500,000 or something, it’s a lot easier to raise private money for that as an equity component for that, or just raise debt on a property like that and reposition it yourself almost like a hard money loan.

When you’re dealing with 50, 100 unit properties where you are raising giant hunks of equity, typically you’re going into syndication like that and you’re having a private placement and you’re raising equity from that standpoint. So having that experience on the syndication side of understanding how to do the private placement or how the process works. So having a good syndication attorney to do all that kind of stuff I think is key on the multi-family side to do larger projects. Because you kind of finance it differently because banks want to get more involved on the bigger stuff. It’s a lot easier to find banking that will do million dollar plus loans versus million and less loans or local lenders typically on the ground in those markets that are willing to do that and do the construction financing and stuff like that, which is a whole nother learning experience doing construction draws from a bank and dealing with those hoops that you have to jump through to get the money out. You’ve got to put all the money in first, then go through and get it.

Then show them what you spent. Then they do an inspection to get your money out. You’ve got to front it every time, so it hurts.

Matt Theriault: It does. I had to do that with the City of Memphis once.

Matt Owens: Oh, man.

Matt Theriault: They still have $10,000 of my money because I never-

Matt Owens: That sounds like the city of Memphis.

Matt Theriault: Yes. I think that New York Mafia thing. I think they missed it. I think it’s really in the South.

Matt Owens: Yeah, right. Good ole boys network out there.

Matt Theriault: That’s right. Sweet. Matt, it’s been a pleasure. It’s always a pleasure. I love talking to you and come back as often as you want. If someone wanted to get in touch with you, what would be the best way for them to do that?

Matt Owens: They can email me at [email protected], or go onto our website, which is

Matt Theriault: Ocgproperties.

Matt Owens: Correct.

Matt Theriault: Dot com perfect.

Matt Owens: There you go.

Matt Theriault: All right buddy. It’s been a pleasure.

Matt Owens: Absolutely.

Matt Theriault: I’ll see you soon.

Matt Owens: Cool.

Matt Theriault: All right. Take care.