For many centuries, the question of what is and what is not ethical has been debated throughout society. Today Matt puts it all out there for you, and asks you to decide.
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(Voice Over): You’re about to meet a man that can show you how he took control of his life and financial future and how you can do the same. He’s never been on TV. He’s not a millionaire and he doesn’t know Donald Trump. He is a full time real estate investor, newly discovered author, and family man. He does not report to a boss. He creates his own schedule and takes his family on a few vacations every year. He got started investing in real estate with almost no money and a really crummy credit score. And he’s going to show you exactly how he did it and how he continues to do it. You will have to work. You will have to be responsible. However, laying the beach, sipping fruity drinks is a reasonable goal. Without further delay, your guru. Sorry. Your guide to a better life, the real estate investor, Matt Theriault.
Matt Theriault: Hello. And greetings from the Epic Real Estate Investing Podcast. The podcast that will show you how to create wealth through conventional and creative real estate investing so you will have the option to realistically retire in the next ten year and less. And enjoy the good life while you’re still young enough to do so.
My name is Matt Theriault, author, full-time real estate investor, and family man. If this is your first time listening to the show. Welcome. You would want to do two things. One, you’ll want to go back and listen to Episode 1 to get the gist of what the show is about and why it’s here. I mean that everything that we discussed from this point forward is going to make a whole lot of more sense to you.
And two, you would want to go download the free real estate investing course. How to do deals. No money required at www.realestateinvesting course.com. It’s a step by step course that which I will reveal everything that I do everything that I say, everything that I use, including the documents and the contracts to invest in real estate using no money or credit and that’s yours for free at freerealestateinvestingcourse.com.
Okay. Sorry. I’m going to have broken another promise to you again. Today’s episode is not going to be about what I said what it would be at the end of the last episode. I’ll definitely keep my word and I will cover it in the next episode, episode 12.
You know, something has come up regarding the last episode that I believe is much more important to discuss first. You see, I was listening to another real estate investing podcast today. And the host received a rather critical comment on iTunes.
And that comment was accusing him of being an unethical in some of his practices and negotiating strategies. And as the host reads his critics comments on the air. I noticed that the critic could have just as easily been talking my last episode, episode 10, as they were about this other show.
I mean maybe even more so. Now, although I didn’t receive a comment on my show or that I have received any email or phone call after listening to this other show. Just knowing the nature of the Internet, it’s probably only a matter of time before comments like that finds its way to me.
So I just want to discuss in greater detail, negotiating. And specifically negotiating with regard to what is ethical and what is not. You know, when I set to put out this podcast together. I wanted to do something very different. Something different than anything that I have ever heard.
I wanted to deliver the truth. And I’m not insinuating that everybody that discusses or teaches real estate investing is lying about it. Not at all. I mean there are a lot of great people in the industry that do good work. But I wanted to go out of the way to reveal the entire truth meaning I have never heard anyone teach and/or inform about some of the harsher reality of what I’ve experienced out there in the world of real estate investing.
I wanted this to be an honest podcast. One that would be completely transparent. One that will let you the listener knows what it’s like to put deals together day in and day out. The reality of a real estate investor’s daily life experiences and shows you how the real world of real estate investing really works.
And then I wanted to create an audience or a community, a network of people who are serious about their real estate investing that have realistic real world expectations. And I wanted to stay far away from the guru style delivery of how wonderful and easy real estate investing is.
I mean the typical guru message can get so sugar-coated, fluffy, and warm, and fuzzy that it makes me wonder if they’re really out there in the game and on the field doing deals. Or do they just read some books and manage to package up the information and sell it better than anyone. I don’t know.
Real estate investing is hard work. It has its moments of warm and fuzzy. It has its moments of exhilaration but for the most part it’s tough. It’s frustrating. It’s stressful. Now, certainly the more experience you get under you belt. The lesser you are going to experience this ugly motions but they really never go away.
I mean it’s just part of the business. I mean I frequently contemplate, “is this real estate thing really worth it?” I mean life can really sucks as a real estate investor. But the thing that keeps me going. I think of the alternatives. Meaning do I quit and go get a job at $40,000 a year working 40 to 50 hours a week and start reporting to a boss? Or do I just endure all the crap and flip another halves, put $40,000 in my pocket and take the rest of the week off.
I mean it’s never a difficult decision when pondering the alternatives so I continue to do what I do. Now after re-listening to my last episode, episode 10. I realize that I might have left some holes in there. Holes of which I should probably fill up.
There are likely some dots that need connecting especially considering that if you don’t know me personally that if you only know me from this podcast and from the content that I share here. There are probably a wide array of inaccurate opinion that you could form of me and my approach to real estate investing.
So real quickly just to bring it to speed. I want to share what the critic of the other show had to say, what their observations were. It was a concern for the critic that the buyer can go back to the seller for a deeper discount after the seller accepted the contract.
He thought that it was unethical. And it was concern for this critic about the timing of which the discount can be asked for. He thought it was unethical as well. It was likened to the holding of the seller’s feet to the fire. And it was concern that this type of strategy is akin to taking advantage of the seller’s ignorance just to maximize profits.
Now this critic acknowledged that these practices are legal although he feels they are not ethical. Now as I mentioned earlier, these concerns could very easily have been raised around my last episode so before he finds his way here or anyone that may happen to agree with him.
And I’m sure there are many because this critic’s concerns in all fairness, they are not uncommon concerns. And quite honestly, they could be very legitimately supportive with a logical debate.
So I just to fill in the holes that I left in the last episode the very best that I can. You see, I’ve been in the real estate game for a long time but I haven’t been in the teaching game very long. So sometimes I recognize that I assume you have more information than I have so I’m working on that.
So to begin, let’s establish something. This is the epic real estate investing podcast. The operative word that I would like to draw your attention to is investing. If you are going to revert yourself as an investor, it is your job to buy low and sell high.
That’s what investors do. You might sell fast through a whole saving or fix of web or you might sell over time via holding and renting but either way you know follow the rules for sure. And don’t break any laws or ethics. But buy low and sell high.
That’s your job. That’s what investors do. As an investor, it is your job to turn a profit. If you don’t, you are not an investor.
You know, I was asked the other day. Is real estate a good investment right now? And I answered it depends. Are you a good real estate investor? I mean it’s very simple. The better you are at investing, the more money you will make. That’s the whole intention.
If you’re a good real estate investor, yes. Real estate is a good investment of which means you know enough about real estate investing to make profits.
You know, Warren Buffet is considered by many as the world’s greatest investor. And why? Because he makes big profits.
Bigger profits than anybody else. In fact, he’s revered, respected, and celebrated because he has done so. So if you want to be an investor, this is probably a good show for you to listen to.
You know, on episode one I established who this podcast is likely for and who is likely not for. Now, if you just want to go help people by helping them, buy and sell houses, and in result you earn a commission. You should be probably looked into becoming a real estate agent. And that would be another show entirely, not this one.
This is the epic real estate investing show. Second, to earn a profit. Profit’s big enough to enable real estate investing to be a full time gig for you. A gig of which you can provide for yourself and your family.
You are going to want to focus on as we have discussed, working with people that need to sell. You want to work with people that need to sell as opposed to people who want to sell.
I mean certainly you can find some deals among people that want to sell but there are really are few and far in between. Well at least by my definition of what a deal is, your big deals, your big profits, the types of profits that will make you a good real estate investor will come by working with sellers that need to sell more commonly referred to as “motivated sellers.”
Now, that word motivated. It’s a funny word in this context. I mean it’s a guru word really. The word of motivated, it really dilutes the reality of what you are going to be dealing with by working with people that need to sell by working with motivated sellers.
I mean the word “motivated”; it has a positive error about it. Isn’t it? I mean being motivated is typically a good thing. I mean you need motivation to get out of bed every morning. You need motivation to go to work everyday. You need motivation to pursue your dreams.
I mean in that sense, motivation is a good thing. It’s a tool. It’s an asset. It’s a state of mind that enables and empowers you to get more out of life. In the context, however, of motivated seller. It’s really not so positive although it may sound like it.
I mean it might be positive for you the buyer but not so much so for the seller. And what I mean by that is what causes a seller to be motivated? What would cause a seller to be motivated to sell their real estate?
And in a nutshell, the real estate is a problem for them. And they don’t want the problem anymore. That’s why they’re motivated. They don’t want the problem anymore. Get rid of this headache please.
You know, whether they just lost their job. They just got divorced. They just inherited the property and don’t have the means or resources to hold on to it. Or they just downsized at work or they’re being relocated for their work.
They’re tired of being a landlord. They’re own fix and flip plans maybe didn’t pan out and they’re haemorrhaging money every month that they can’t sell their property.
I mean life happens to all of us. And whatever the situation, the real estate is a problem. That’s what makes them a motivated seller. A significant problem has them motivated. They need to sell because it’s a problem.
Now, you are an investor. Right? You are not a service provider. You are buyer and seller of real estate. One of which makes a living by buying low and selling high. Now, you look for sellers with problems. Motivated sellers that are what everyone teach to look for motivated sellers.
It sounds all warm and fuzzy. You’re just looking for motivated sellers. No. You are looking for sellers with problems. And you’re looking for sellers with problems because it’s predominantly the place where you can buy low.
And by the way of purchasing of their real estate that they need to sell, you solve their problem. And please know this, it is their problem. It is not your problem. You have no obligation to their problem.
I mean whatever they did or whatever happens to them prior to you meeting them. It’s not your responsibility. Don’t assume it. I’m not asking to be a cold-hearted jerk by no means. I mean you can certainly have empathy for them.
I mean none of us want bad things to happen to people but don’t take responsibility for their misfortunes. I mean unless you want to of course but just because you are buying a piece of real estate from someone that’s experiencing a bad time in life doesn’t make it your obligation to fix their life.
That’s not what you do. You buy and sell houses. That’s your job. You are an investor. Now, indirectly you can solve their problem. Indirectly they’ll benefit from what you do but it’s indirectly that you solve their problem.
It’s indirectly that you do that. It’s not directly. Directly you do what you do to turn a profit to feed your family so that you don’t end up being a motivated seller yourself someday. I hope this is making sense.[00:13:23]
Now having said that, you can certainly introduce solutions into your real estate transaction that will help sellers with areas of their life that might not be real estate related.
I mean I do that all the time but the reason to do that is to help you get the deal done. You’re not there to clean up their mess. You are there to alleviate them from their mess. Their real estate mess specifically.
There’s a subtly difference there but there is a difference and it is significant. It is profound. It is distinct. Now, I can somewhat hear it rolling around in some of your minds. Yes. I can hear your minds rolling around through the podcast.
And I just want to clarify. Never did I say to take advantage of people in their time of need. That’s not what I’m suggesting. Not once did I say cheat someone in dire straits. I don’t endorse that. And I’ve never done that.
I do not work that way. My intention is to always achieve a win-win outcome always. That being said, let’s define what win-win is. This is where the end result frequently gets misconstrued especially from the outside looking, especially by the bystanders watching a real estate deal or hearing about a real estate deal.
You see win-win is when sides, the buyer and the seller, get what they want out of the deal. Very simple. So how do you do that? How do you help the seller get what they want?
Well, you ask the seller what they want. You know, too many people assume they know what the other side wants. If you do this, you would be surprised how many times you would be wrong. So for example, what are some of the things that a motivated seller might want?
A motivated seller might want as much money as they can get as fast as they can get it. And that’s very common. That’s what most people ‘s idea of what a motivated seller really wants. Actually let me clarify that. That’s what most buyers assume the seller wants but although it’s a common want. It’s not always the case. I would say my experience. That’s not even the case fifty percent of the time.
Using the seller information sheet we discussed a few episodes ago, you’ll discover what the motivated seller really wants. Many don’t want money at all. Many just want out from underneath their monetary liability, out from underneath their headache. They want the pain to go away.
Many just want out of situation so they can get on with their lives. Many don’t care what happens to the property as long as they don’t get it on closure on their credit report. Some just want a moving truck and first and last month’s rent for their next residence.
Or as an example this week, through a lead that came to me from a yellow ladder. I talked to this guy and his loan has adjusted. And his property no longer cash flowed out after that adjustment. And he had been carrying a negative cash flow for the last few months and he just couldn’t afford to do it anymore.
And he just wanted to get rid of the property. He didn’t care what happens to it as long as it didn’t get foreclosed on. All he wanted to do was preserve his credit score and preserving his credit score had an extremely high value to him more than the real estate itself. So I took the property office hands and successfully preserved his credit score. And not a dime out of my pocket to do so.
I don’t know what else is going on his life that had him just signed the property over to me. But he got what he wanted. He got exactly what he asked for. Did you win? Yes. Absolutely. He got rid of the property and I structured the deal so that it won’t foreclose on. And it will not impact his credit score.
Now, did I win? Yes. I got a property for free of which all I had to do was to make a few phone calls and negotiated a couple of lanes that were attached to the property then I wholesaled the property in twenty four hours and put $16,000 in my pocket.
Is that win-win? Yes. He got what he wanted and I got what I wanted. Here’s the distinction. This is where a lot of people get confused. Win-win does not mean equal equal.
I mean how do you buy low and sell high with equal equal? You can’t but you can buy low and sell high with win-win all day long.
Win-win means both sides getting what they want. If the seller just wants a good night’s sleep and you want $16,000. And you both get it after the transaction is complete. That’s win-win.
You know that good night’s sleep for the seller could be worth more than $16,000 to them. You don’t know everything that is going on in their lives that has them do what they do.
Nor do you why they value what they value. I mean sellers will trade equity for peace of mind all day long. Remember that. They will trade equity, money for peace of mind. Now they do that all day long. And that’s okay. That’s perfectly okay.
So a lesson here is don’t assume what the other party wants. Just ask them. And then do everything you can to give it to them so can get what you want. And don’t place your opinion or value on what the other party wants either.
I mean a good night’s sleep might be priceless to the other party. I mean given up $16,000 of equity on his property that might have been a steal for him. He might be thinking that he got out of his problem easy and cheap.
So go for win-win always. But don’t confuse win-win with equal equal. Now, let’s look at negotiating strategy of which most likely comprises the majority of my potentially controversial content of last episode.
Specifically, let’s look at negotiating as a reverse to ethics. I mean what is ethical negotiating. I mean depending on your perspective, negotiating and in itself could be ethically questionable. I mean to negotiate is to deal and bargain with another and others as in preparation of a treaty or contract.
If within creating a contract and impasses reach meaning there isn’t quick and easy fix. There is a meeting of the minds. Then there must be some negotiating of which will typically end up in each side having to concede something.
They are going to have to give up something or maybe multiple things. That’s negotiating. So how do you negotiate? Particularly, if you can’t find an easy meeting ground. How do you determine who gives up what?
Well, each party has their own information. Each party has their own experience that they can leverage in the negotiation process. You know, typically the person with the most information and experience is going to win.
But just because someone wins does not necessarily means someone loses. You see, negotiation is about many things. One of its central elements is convincing others to accept the accuracy or reality of information that will influence the decisions.
Negotiation is the process of communication. Communication going back and forth in order to reach a joint agreement. I mean there are as many negotiating strategies and styles as there are personalities. There is no one-sized fit all strategy of negotiating. But we all negotiate.
We negotiate all day long. Even if we don’t even know we are negotiating, we negotiate all day long. You know when I teach negotiating to my students, I often begin by indicating that I have rarely participated in a negotiation during which both sides did not lie.
Yet I have encountered very few people within these negotiations that I thought were dishonest. So how can negotiators lie without being dishonest? Will they misrepresent? They are not expected to discuss truthfully. For example, this is how negotiation typically works. You know, two people get together to negotiate. One is authorized to accept any amount over $10 while the other authorized to pay any amount up to $15.
So here they have a $5 settlement range between their respective bottom lines. You know, they initially exchange small talk. They get to know each other. They build reports. That’s normal. And then they begin to explore the details and the issues of their transaction.
Now the person who hopes to make the sale, they state that they cannot accept but anything below $20. And the person hoping to make the purchase, they indicate that they cannot go one penny over $7.50.
They’re happy and elated to begun their interaction successfully yet both have begun with bold-faced lies. Haven’t they? So in that instance, is this negotiation unethical? It happens everyday and darn near in every single industry. Is it unethical?
Perhaps you partake in that type of negotiation every once in awhile. Maybe frequently or maybe even on a daily basis in what you do for a living. Is it unethical? I don’t know. That’s the thing about ethics and moral and people’s perspective of what is right and what is wrong.
It’s very subjective. There is no hard answer. How about when you go to a swap meet or a flea market and you stop by someone’s booth and the merchant is selling his or her widgets for $10 each.
Now you can easily afford to give the merchant the $10 that he is asking for. But you want a deal. So you say something like I’ll give you 8 bucks for one of your widgets.
Is that unethical?[00:22:34]
Or maybe you have a little experience under your belt and you have been able to accumulate some negotiating wisdom over your lifetime. And you understand that timing aspect of negotiating.
And you show up late Sunday afternoon just as the merchant is packing his widgets and he is loading them into his van. He is getting ready to go home and then you stop by. I’ll give you $7 for one of your widgets. Is that unethical?
I mean you did so because you knew what’s likely going to the merchant’s mind. It’s the end of the weekend. I’m on my way home. Why not make one last sale so what if it’s a discount?
It’s better than not making a sale at all. You see, you stop by at the end of the weekend because you knew you were more inclined to get your discount. You knew the timing had an impact on wether you get your discount or not. Right?
Why would you do that? Why would you try to take advantage of this poor merchant that’s only trying to feed his family selling widgets at the swap meet? Why in the world would anyone do that? Is that unethical?
I don’t know. Or is it just business? Or how about when you go to go buy a car? I mean you walk on the sales floor knowing that there’s no way there’s not a chance in hell that you are going to pay full price.
I mean you’re expecting a discount off the sticker price before you ever leave your house for the dealership. And maybe you have some experience under belt. Maybe you once sold cars for a living. Or maybe you know somebody that did. Or you watched an episode of Consumer Reports on TV or you read a blogpost “Ten Tips To Saving Money When You Buy a Car.”
And now you’re on with some insider information on how car sales work. I mean you’re developing your strategy now. You’ve got information. And you wait until the end of the month before you head to the dealership because you know the sales people have monthly quotas. And you know that you’re more likely to get a better deal at the end of the month on the 29th or the 30th.
Or even better you wait until the 31st or even better than that you wait until the 31st. and you walk into the dealership just before they’re closing. I mean that’s when you are likely to get the very, very best deal for your car. Right?
You have some information about how to negotiate specifically with cars salesmen and you know the timing is really, really, really important to when you actually go in to do your negotiating.
I mean why would you do that? Why would do that to the poor salesperson that sweats day in and day out to sell these cars. I mean it might working 10 to 12 hours day. Maybe 6 to 7 days a week. I mean they’re stressing out that they might not hit their quota. They might be stressed now that they might lose their jobs because they haven’t hit the required quota for the last three months in a row.
Why would you do that to the poor salesperson that doing everything that they can to feed their family? Why would you hold the poor salesman’s feet to the fire like that? Is that unethical or is it just business? Is that ethical or unethical for you to use the information you have and wait for the right time to use it to get a good deal? To wait to use it to get the very best deal you possibly can for a car? Is that unethical or is that just business?
You know, when it comes to ethics and morals regarding the question what is ethical? I mean the answer is very subjective. There is huge gray area. I mean a huge one. Here’s where the subject is black and white however. There is no doubt that one could make just as strong of an argument that negotiating is unethical as one could negotiating is just for business.
If you are one that would make an argument that negotiating is unethical. I mean you probably should not pursue real estate investing. I mean take your money and go on invest in stocks and bonds and mutual funds where the price is the price. There is no negotiating there.
I mean what goes on behind the scenes that might be ethical question or unethical debate but there is no negotiating for you. Or put your money into a savings account where the interest rate it is what it is. There is no negotiating there either. You know, that get rich slow program, the get rich over 40 or 50 years is not for me.
And not only is it not for me. I mean really believe it’s a scam. And it’s what most people do unfortunately. Unfortunately because it fails 95% of the time. That’s why I think it’s a scam because it doesn’t work for anybody. 95% of all Americans by the time they reach the age of 65. 95% is pretty much all Americans. They’re either dead or dead broke.
That’s per Department of Health and Services. That’s their statistics. Not mine by the way. So real estate investing to me, it is a business. And it might be something else to you but it is a business to me. And it’s a business of which the better your people skills are, the better your negotiating skills are, the better the business is going to be.
Now lastly, is it unfair that a person might invest say $ 50,000 in their business education or training? And those that they encounter do not. Is it unfair for those who do business together? Is it unfair or unethical that one has more education and experience than many of the people that they negotiate with? Is it unfair that they use that education and experience to create good deals for themselves? I mean is that unethical?
Is it unethical that they choose the time of when to actually negotiate because they know timing might serve them better? Is it unfair because they practice and refine their negotiating strategy and technique? And because they do, is it now their responsibility to negotiate on their own behalf and also that of the other?
I mean is that ethical is in the context of real estate? Negotiating on both behalf because one shows to learn how to negotiate and then decide their practice drill and rehearse to get good at it while the other person did not. Is that what ethical is in the context of real estate? Just because it’s real estate.
I mean that’s insane. Listen. People go to school so they’ll be better at their job, so they’ll have an advantage in the marketplace and be selected over someone else going for the same job. So they can create a better life for themselves and their families. Is it unfair or unethical because they went to school to improve themselves for this reason?
I mean the other guy or girl is not going to get the job. I mean there is only one opening available. Is it unethical because the other person lost? They did not get the job.
Athletes train day in and day out to make it to the pros. They do so for the day when a position on the roster opens up, they’re ready to take it. They’re ready to seize it so that they can do what they love and earn a big paycheck and take care of their family.
I mean there will be thousands of other athletes that will be left off the roster and force to go to do something else besides going pro. Is it unfair because the other guy trained harder? Is it unethical because they were losers? They were the people who did not make under the roster.
Let’s go straight for a second. This is how the world works. In fact, this is how nature works. It is survival of the fittest. Whether you want to believe or not, it is survival of the fittest and if you want to survive. You have to stay fit. And staying fit comes in different shapes, forms, and sizes. I mean staying fit might look like increasing your physical endurance or strength.
It might look like getting that MBA or PhD. It might look like reading books about your trade. It might look like attending seminars. Or staying fit might look like listening to a podcast about real estate investing. There are countless ways to stay fit to survive.
And that didn’t make this way by the way. It’s just how it is. You can accept it or not. It is what it is. But man, this is real estate. This is someone’s residence. This is someone’s life. So, what is the difference?
I mean competing for a job? Negotiating for a widget or a car? Training to go to pro? Aren’t those people’s lives as well? You know, but if that’s your position when it comes to real estate. Specifically, when it comes to motivated sellers that real estate is different somehow. Then we are not really talking about ethics. Are we?
What we are talking about is situational ethics. We are talking a double standard. We are essentially talking about hypocrisy. Aren’t we? Yes, we are. That’s not really a real estate conversation. Is it?
I mean that would be a different podcast show also. You know, in a nutshell, and in closing. I believe it’s my repsonsiblity inside my real estate investing business to create win-win deals with people. And I do. I help motivated sellers get what they want so I can get what I want.
I’m here showing how to do the exact same thing. And that’s that. I mean if you ever rebuttal, send me an email at epic professionals with ethics in the subject line. I’ll address it on the air. I mean I actually love to hear your perspective especially if you disagree.
So send me an email to [email protected]. Again, [email protected] with ethics on the subject line and I’ll read it on the air. And like I said, I’d love to hear your perspective especially if you disagree.
So until next time. As a very wise person once said, I mean I believe it was Zig Ziglar, “you can have everything in life that you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want. To your success, I am Matt Theriault. Living the dream.
(Voice Over): Thank you for spending this time with Matt Theriault and the Epic Real Estate Investing podcast. When you have time, stop by iTunes to leave your comments and let us know what you think of this show. And if you haven’t done so already, get started investing today by visiting FreeRealEstateInvestingCourse.com to access Matt’s free course on how to deals, no money required. Until next time. To your success, to your success, to your success (fading).[00:32:33]